A disaster under the wood?

I got this No.4 here last year as my first gun and love it. It's a Fazakerly made in 49. I cleaned it when I got it however recently I've taken to scrubbing all the old light surface rust down, and decided to take it out of the stock to make sure everything under the wood was alright.

Well, I took the stock off and it looks pretty messed up. There's a crack right at the rear of the fore-stock, and it appears as if half of the wood has rotted or been eaten away. Perhaps I'm being a little pessimistic, but is this too far gone? I've shot about 100 rounds so far without a hitch, but am worried about it! I was thinking about maybe just getting wood glue and putting it in the crack, as I saw someone suggest for someone else, however I'm not sure if that is the best course of action here!

Thanks!

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Looks to me as if someone has attempted to "bed" the action using some sort of filler; going by whats stuck around the main screw area. Recoil lug's also look dodgy in the photo.
It looks like the rear end where the crack is has been filled at the top edge as well.
I'm sure the crack could be repaired; but filler compound etc may be tricky to sort out.
Probably worth talking to a profesional; such as Brian Dick.

Looks like someone attacked the area with a screwdriver for a chisel to remove whatever was there...not rot.

Where oh where is Peter when we need him....?

Wow! I'm not so sure you'd want to read Peter's comments on that mess. To quote him: "What planet are they on?".

My take is that it might be repairable but considering the time it would take to do it correctly, you might be better off getting a new forend fitted. The draws and reinforce look totally destroyed to me from the pictures and would need to be cut out, replaced and fitted. All that providing the epoxy or whatever unauthorized crap was used to screw it up in the first place.

Sorry, got interrupted. I meant to say it may be fixed after all the crap epoxy is removed. Another look at the pictures leaves me wondering what will be left.

---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:31 PM ----------

Luckily, nos Fazakerley forends are still available. I may have one that's even F49 manufacture.

if it was mine i would spray it with oven cleaner and see what you have to me it is repairable

The problem is that this Bisonite or whatever they used had to approximate the dimensions and relative positions of the previous wood surfaces, which meant the wood was often roughly chiselled out to make space for it. Not only because it was easier, but because the stuff bonded better to a rough surface.

Two trains of thought pay to have a professional like BD repair it or the better option I think would be to have BD replace the bottom wood as option 1 would be a mountain of work for any one and even then it may get to a point where it cannot be salved in which case a new wood will go on + the work already done to try to repair the old stock.
So I would go with option #2 and put the old stock on the wall to remind you of the total **** bubba's out there.....................:bitch:

Thank you everyone so far for your advice! Its a shame the stock is in such poor condition since on the outside I think it looks beautiful. I bought the gun last year as a gift to myself for getting into law school along with 500 rounds.I feel I should also note that the stock doesn't touch the barrel at the front, and when put in place you can rock the stock a little up and down, see -sawing from touching the barrel and not when the main screw isn't screwed in. I've taken a picture of the stock as it is with the gun in it, to sort of see how it sits in there. In the picture it looks like not a lot of contact is being made, unfortunately. I'm currently a law student and don't have a job so I currently have 0 income. My tax return is coming soon however, and depending on how much I get I will likely go with getting a new fore-stock on her. On that front, this is a Fazakerly No.4 Mk1 made in Feb 49, so I'm not sure what stock exactly to get that would match with the rest of the wood, is it just a luck of the draw and I hope with crossed fingers and praying hands that the forestock will match the rest of the wood?

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in the meantime, I have about 400 rounds of MEN .303 fmj still to shoot, do you guys think it would be safe for me to shoot the gun with the stock as it is?

Well thank you everyone for the advice! I got it as a present to myself for getting into law school last year. Pretty bummed that it's as messed up as it is. Shame that my all matching rifle looks so beautiful on the outside but a mess on the inside. I also noticed when I took the main screw out the forestock can be see-sawed up and down, such that the stock will touch the barrel when pushed that way, but won't get a good angle on the butt socket, and then I can push it the other way (how it is with the main screw screwed in) and it will be correct on the receiver but not on the barrel. Shame that I'll have to get rid of the stock and lose the matching numbers on the rifle. :crying:

To give a better look at the stock here it is looking at it from the magwell. Certainly doesn't look like it has a lot of contact with the stock. I do still have 400 rounds of men 303. I didn't have any problems while shooting the first 100 rounds, would it be safe in the meantime to shoot it a little bit?

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I'm leaning towards getting a new forestock for it, but since I don't have a job right now I'll see what my tax return will be and use that.When getting a new forestock is there really any way to correctly color match it, or do I just cross my fingers and pray that it looks alright? It is a no.4 mk 1 Fazakerley manufactured februray of 1949, if I find one, such as Brian suggested, from that date it is likely that the wood source will be very similar?

Thanks again for everyone's help!

I enjoy restoring older Enfields, mainly undoing what Bubba gone done!

If I find a stock that has been glass bedded to 'improve' things, I dont even bother, it gets shoved into the scrap walnut bucket.

I am sure that the current stock is salvageable given enough effort by somebody who knows what they are doing.
Stocking up a Lee Enfield takes a bit of practice to get it right. I encourage you to try, but it is not a project for the novice.

It is sad that the numbers matching wood will be lost from the assembly. But if this rifle went across an armourer's bench, he would be changing out the stock, no question. This rifle is worth repairing, so do it once, do it right the first time with replacement parts.

If you shoot it as is, the accuracy might be poor. The stock might start to split and break up under recoil.
How well does it shoot right now?

you have nothing to loose with the forend if you repair it right it will only be you that knows and the numbers will stay

I would concur with the crowd, send it to Brian to fit a NOS replacement.

It can be coloured to match your rifle and Brian will fit it correctly!

It's not worth the effort, unless you have the skills and time on your hands to repair it.

This may be another option as I had a Master stockmaker do to my T long story short got it from a mate who did not miss me on price took it to the range and it had about a 15MOA group at 100M.
Tha action rocked like yours at the front the whole shebang was like a sea sick boat, pulled the furniture off and the draws were mushed beyond belief non salvageable.

What to do!!! If it was one of my other No.4's no issue new bottom wood but this is a T and it was imperative to keep the lower furniture, Ken came up with this fix using aircraft grade aluminium which he had done for another clients 303 and used aircraft grade epoxy screwed the block in, epoxy glued and precisely machined the block in situ to the required dimensions then re-bedded the front end to mil specs Lbs uplift you cannot tell from the outside and the rifle is seldom out of the safe only for RLO & light oiling. It groups really well now and probably had 60 rounds through it in 6 years since the rebuild.
Ken Davis has 40 years as a stock maker I did post a while ago on a stock he made from scatch out of I think pear wood for his might be a Lee speed or LE MKI not sure but it is a beautiful looking effort even to getting the screw slottted heads to line up horizontaly on the rear peep when tightened.

Because you have the original furniture I would put epoxy in lots of it mixed with saw dust then use a dremel to reshape

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

This may be another option as I has a Master stockmaker do to my T long story short got it from a mate who did not miss me on price took it to the range and it had about a 15MOA group at 100M.
Tha action rocked like yours at the front the whole shebang was like a sea sick boat, pulled the furniture off and the draws were mushed beyond belief non salvageable.

What to do!!! If it was one of my other No.4's no issue new bottom wood but this is a T and it was imperative to keep the lower furniture, Ken came up with this fix using aircraft grade aluminium which he had done for another clients 303 and used aircraft grade epoxy screwed the block in, epoxy glued and precisely machined the block in situ to the required dimensions then re-bedded the front end to mil specs Lbs uplift you cannot tell from the outside and the rifle is seldom out of the safe only for RLO & light oiling. It groups really well now and probably had 60 rounds through it in 6 years since the rebuild.
Ken Davis has 40 years as a stock maker I did post a while ago on a stock he made from scatch out of I think pear wood for his might be a Lee speed or LE MKI not sure but it is a beautiful looking effort even to getting the screw slottted heads to line up horizontaly on the rear peep when tightened.

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That's a real engineering approach Ron!
The sort of thing my father would have done.

Looks very strong indeed, bloody good job.

I would agree that there are solutions to repairing it.

But, as it's a Beech stocked Faz 49 dated rifle and most of the available NOS replacement woodwork is also Faz, Beech and 49 dated (at least here in the UK), I would replace the offending item.

It's what would have been done in service after all and who's to say this isn't a replacement that's already on there.

I've seen more than one No4 over the years that someone had replaced the forend on, couldn't master the bedding (or thought accuracy led in that direction) and fiberglassed the lot in dispare!

I helped a friend carefully cut such an offender off his new rifle a while back in my workshop, when all attempts to remove it in the traditional fashion failed!

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Ken Davis has 40 years as a stock maker I did post a while ago on a stock he made from scatch out of I think pear wood for his might be a Lee speed or LE MKI not sure but it is a beautiful looking effort

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I remember that too...very appealing.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I would replace the offending item. It's what would have been done in service after all and who's to say this isn't a replacement that's already on there.

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Very true, and all this about it actually has the numbers present...who's to say that wasn't done by the armorers or someone since. You can do the exact same thing as the armorers, replace and hand stamp to match. They would have. Easier than trying to fix that mess.

Should be a No 4 Mk 2 if manufactured in 1949. Trigger not fixed to the trigger guard but hung from the body.

You have two options: the easy one is to replace the stock; the difficult one is to try and fix it. The advantage of the second one is that you always have the option of replacing the stock if your fix doesn't. And the experience of what doesn't work.

I would fix the stock before shooting again.

that’s a nice repair job

The earliest No.4Mk.2 rifles were produced in April 1949 if memory serves. Fazakerley built lots of No.4Mk.1 in 1949 also which is what the OP's rifle is.

Wow, again, thanks so much for the response!

To Englishman_ca

I have only really shot the rifle once with a friend at a range, and it was actually the first time I have ever shot a rifle. In the process I finally accepted the fact that my right eye was not good vision wise. I could barely make my targets out at 75ish yards (100 yards was even too far!) I went to the eye doctor and got some glasses so that I can shoot. My group of about 25ish rounds all seemed to fit in the 12" target though. I would like to take the rifle out again soon though, maybe during my break as right now I have a brief and job interviews to do. Very stressful! I hope to come back in a few weeks and report back!

to Mr. Clark
I am certainly willing to at least attempt to fix it, however I'll see if I can find good resources that I can understand. If I don't think I can do it I'll be buying a new stock.

To Cinders
Wow, that looks like a nice repair job! It certainly seems like you get what you pay for! A masterful job!

to Bindi2
That certainly makes it sound easy, but I'm worried that I would mess it up way more than it currently is. Do you know of any tutorials or articles on that method?

To Browningautorifle
If I do get a new stock, do you know how they hand stamped the stock?

to Daan Kemp
Thanks for the info! Mine was in the very last runs of mk1s before they transitioned over to mk2s. The trigger is hung from the guard and it does have mk1 on the side of the receiver.

to Brian Dick
Thank you for the information again! I may be contacting you soon to ask about stock prices!

Again, thank you everyone for the advice!

Obviously if your new to rifle shooting you will probably take a while to become proficient. But this rifle when it's properly set up should be able to place those 25 shots within a 2" or 3" group at 100 yards.

"...spray it with oven cleaner..." Oven cleaner is caustic and can chemically burn wood.
It looks like somebody refinished the rifle without bothering to remove the stock. Fixing it will depend on where in N. America you are.
"...safe for me to shoot..." The fore stock is cracked. That won't cause the thing to burst from shooting, but you might end up with wood bits in your hand.

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Originally Posted by Thelionheart777

If I do get a new stock, do you know how they hand stamped the stock?

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A hand stamp set...just don't get over zealous or smack too hard. Test on another piece until you have it right.

i don’t want to be smart but i have cleaned a lot of stocks with oven cleaner and you wash them in water to clean up i have never had a problem with any of them after the clean up
i have had a couple of others say you can’t no one has ever proved anything
i read it in one of the brownells gunsmith kinks and have used the idea ever since
you only leave it on the wood for about 15 minutes then wash off and let dry
so if my idea is not right what is ,how does every body clean up there wood work

I've used oven cleaner once, on a very poor condition stock; it cleaned the stock OK, but it's a strong alkali and I found the wood behaved like litmus paper and went a strange colour [blue-grey, if I recall correctly] and so after I had washed it off I neutralised it with vinegar and thankfully it went back to a normal colour.
I now favour paint or varnish stripper - gets rid of surface gunk as well as de-greasing.
Also, for a finish personally I prefer Danish oil to linseed oil.

It all depends how bad it is, if it's a clean (black with grime and grease) in preparation for refinishing, I use 3M red scotchbrite, in conjunction with clean water. It's not aggressive, so it doesn't affect markings etc, but it effectively removes all the grime from the fibre of the woodwork.

When it's completely dry, I go over again with a dry scotchbrite, then use liberon spirit based colour, followed by a first coat of raw linseed oil cut 50% with turpentine, (gives great depth to the final finish) followed by neat raw linseed oil applications as required, i.e, until it stops soaking in.

If the woods really dry, or a NOS replacement, I put the stock in a plastic bag and keep applying for a week.

That's my approach anyway.

Lionheart,
Yes, that's a mess. I sympathize, having been a starving college student with a bad shooting/hunting/backpacking/fishing habit. It took years of "therapy" and a regular paycheck to get me over that. (The starving student part, I mean.)
One question nobody has asked is: How does it shoot? What kind of groups are you getting, and with what ammo? While, in the long term, I agree that you will probably need to fit (or have fitted) a new forend, in the meantime, you may be able to get away with injecting some epoxy into the crack and clamping it together as a TEMPORARY fix. It IS broken, and you WILL have to do a more permanent repair, eventually.
I get the feeling that you don't shoot it that often, but that you'd like to. If you get acceptable accuracy with the quick fix, that may serve you for a while. It's not really a safety issue. If the accuracy is not good, then just put it up for now and save up for a replacement forend (They're getting pricier as we speak, so don't waste any time.) and either hone your woodworking skills (on scrap!) or save up for BD or another good LE smith to do the work.
Just my 2c.
Cheers!
Splice

The crack at the back is quite common to see. There are no doubt many great shooting rifles with a similar crack unknown to their owners. The tie plate is doing its job.

Epoxy might be a little difficult to get in there, plus the surface has to be oil free for epoxy glue to adhere. A syringe squirting acetone might clean it out, but keep it off the surface finish, which might be difficult.

If you must try to fix that crack, then use super glue and clamp it tight.
Super glue, or cyanoacrylate as it is known is not sensitive to oil. It is great stuff for certain applications. With a fine glue line, the crack will not open up there again. If it does crack, it will be in the wood beside the glue line.

Cyanoacrylate Set - Lee Valley Tools

Of course, the best fix would be a replacement fore stock. A lot depends on how many rounds you intend to put through it. Casual plinking with light loads, or heavy duty long strings at the range.
For now, if it shoots ok, I would probably just keep shooting the rifle and see what happens, making sure all screws are tight, and keeping an eye the wood directly in front of the trigger guard front screw. If the stock were to degenerate further, a crack would likely appear here.
Known as 'the damned crack', it was routinely repaired by gluing and fitting a cross screw. A Brit armourers' technique that was extensively used in India by Ishapore Arsenal. Hence the term 'Ishy screw'.

we must have access to different oven cleaners i use one from a COLES store never had any problems like that
after 15 minutes i wash off with water and use a old tooth brush to scrub the crap off ,it leaves you with a clean piece of wood to work with
i have even used it for cleaning up the metal work and i have never had any problems

If you want to attempt to fix it properly, you need to cut out all the buggered wood to as close to the tie plate as you can, glue in a block of oak that's angled and a bit oversize on the front where the sear lugs contact and insert and glue two 1/4" dowels horizontally, then refit the draws and cut out the center with a razor saw. I've done a couple of SMLE's and they turned out perfect using only one horizontal dowel. Yours is much worse and will need two in my humble opinion. That's the only way it can be done without using glass bedding compounds and it'll be tedious and time consuming to do correctly. Other than that, the only recourse is to scrap the forend and properly fit a replacement. I won't blow smoke up your rear end. You are wasting your time, ammo and money shooting it as is with the screws tight. Some here will obviously disagree and that's OK, (to each his own), but the bedding in the rear of the forend is very important and the way it is now is useless firewood at best.

I tried oven cleaner when I was young and inexperienced. I reckon it's OK on tight grain hardwood that's on it's last legs anyhow but I'd never use it on anything valuable. It will destroy crap wood like coachwood that's on the soft side to start with and turn it a nice ugly shade of grey. It's a lazy man's method and has no place in proper restoration work. I've mentioned before the guy that taught me about clear ammonia. His forte was restoring super valuable antique Winchesters and muskets. I tried it once and have been using it ever since. It works perfectly and doesn't hurt anything. Just gently clean, rinse with cool water, dry, stain if you want and apply finish when done.

brian when you say clear ammonia here in oz we can get a ammonia that is still a concentrate ,do you wash the wood down and just wash off

Another source of ammonia comes to mind, but I'm not sure I would want to use it!

That said, the very same 'home manufactured ammonia' was used by our great grandparents for browning iron barrels before carding them to a finish and setting with oil..

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

the very same 'home manufactured ammonia' was used by our great grandparents

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And was collected by women during the Civil war in the US for use in Niter bluing...

I buy clear ammonia from Dollar General in half gallon jugs. It's not a concentrate as far as I know and I use it straight. I have a dedicated plastic Brownells tank that's long enough to submerge a forend. Just submerge the grungy wood and let sit a few minutes, clean it gently with a fine Scotchbrite pad, (mine are so well used they feel soft actually). Use a soft bristle toothbrush to clean out the inletting and bearings; then rinse with cool water, blow off the excess with an air hose or wipe off with a blue shop towel, sit it in the sun and let it dry. Once done, you can fit/glue patches if necessary. It will also raise the grain a tad including little scratches and dents where the grain isn't broken. Once repaired, slather on the RLO with a sponge brush, buff out gently with 0000 steel wool in circular motions, wipe off the excess making sure you don't let let build up in the inletting and bearings. Repeat until you get the desired finish or the wood stops absorbing the oil. Simple.

No, I haven't ****ed on anybodies projects yet. At a dollar a jug for the ammonia, it's cheaper than beer!

any how after all the advice are you going to shoot the rifle as is rebed it or go new wood

The type of material you are trying to clean off your wood should dictate what you use. If you have a stock that has the original finish that you can't replace (like an Arisaka), I just use warm water to remove surface grime. If it is a stock that is factory finished using a linseed oil, I'll just use Hoppes #9 to remove the old oil and grime then replenish the wood with RLO. If the stock has been refinished with some kind of paint, varnish or lacquer that is not original to that gun, I will use Citristrip to remove that material. A toothbrush and shop towels will help remove the heaviest layers and not harm any stamped markings. Citristrip is rather messy but it is more "natural" than the other options and doesn't submit your old wooden pieces to really harsh chemicals. As always, research what the original finish was for your firearm so you can match it. I also often consult this website before I service the wood on a gun to make sure I'm not going to negatively impact the collectability of the firearm or ruin its value.

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Originally Posted by pisco

any how after all the advice are you going to shoot the rifle as is rebed it or go new wood

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Sorry for not responding sooner, I have been working on a legal brief and barely had a moment to breathe. I am definitely going to get a new stock, I am weighing my options and prices right now to see what I can afford.

Thank you all for your very helpful advice!

There's plenty on here regarding correctly fitting forends by experienced and knowledgeable members, including a detailed step by step guide by long time contributor Peter Laidler.

If you want to go this route, read and digest most carefully before you proceed.

As previously mentioned, if time isn't on your side, then Brian Dick is your man...