fairbairn–sykes fighting knife, is it legit?

My gut is telling me no, this is not legit. I know almost nothing about these however. Markings look good, scabbard looks good although possibly a late model NATO one. The problem in my mind is that there is no way one of this type would be dated 1940. Thinking this is a 3rd pattern which would be 1943 at the earliest. No other markings besides the date and broad arrow that I could find.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../KPBIhLp-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../19H4X1C-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../OgvUJkv-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../iFd3g3R-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../a4PzFEN-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../DJXPoMc-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../CtpN18L-1.jpg

You don't say if it has a cast No. on it up near the pommel mine has a 1 and has been certified as a 3rd pattern I was referred from this site to an expert cannot remember his name lost all his details when my comp crashed........
It may be the angle it appears the CL of the blade does not line up central to the handle and cross piece!

I don't think your knife is a Wilkinson manufactured Third pattern example, as the pommel nut looks different to other examples I've seen but it does look to be an all original and unmolested late war example.

The best person to ask is Roy Shadbolt, who is an expert in FS knives. You should be able to contact Roy via his website at http://www.wilkinsonfscollection.com although I think he's now working on a new version of his site. I've always found him very helpful.

Quality holding it in hand felt good. If I knew nothing about these I'd say it's legit, but I know just enough about them to not trust that at all. The only marks I could find are the 1940 with the broad arrow just above it. I did not notice anything out of the ordinary about the blade and the handle but if I get back that way to examine it again I will check that. The blade appeared to be unsharpened. I don't know if that is normal or significant. Blade condition appeared to be unused. Handle obviously has some dings, etc. Blade and cross piece both have a black substance on them that I could not get a good handle on. Could be the finish, could be grease, could be black paint. I looked very carefully at the entire knife. It is possible some faint marks could be hidden under this black substance but I found nothing definite. The 1940 and broad arrow are struck very clear and have the substance in them.

If it is legit and late war, why would 1940 be on it? Year production of the type started perhaps? This surely wasn't produced in 1940.

The scabbard was unmarked. It has the elastic type "holder" on it that is stretched and worn out. Other than that it is in good condition.

I believe mine mine is also the 3rd pattern, thanks CINDERS for the number 1 near the pommel, which mine also has and
the ENGLAND stamp on the guard

Over the years the were alot of fakes most came from Spain as I recallAttachment 105709Attachment 105708Attachment 105707

Roy Shadbolt that was the man if my bl**dy comp had not crashed I could have put up what he said about mine, he is a thoroughly decent bloke who gave me a detailed history on my knife etc well worth sending him the pic of that F/S.

That looks almost like a carbon copy of mine RCS:thup:

Kev,
Do you know whether Roy Shadbolt served in 22. Knew someone of that name in the 70's and its not a common surname either!

I sent Roy an email but haven't heard back from him yet.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Kev,
Do you know whether Roy Shadbolt served in 22. Knew someone of that name in the 70's and its not a common surname either!

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Hi Gil, sorry I don't know. I recall that his bio on his early website used to mention that he is ex-UK forces but he's changed the layout a few times since. Why not drop him a line and ask?

Cheers, Kev

I wondered if anyone would want to see this website while we were talking about these...some interesting blades here. Rarest of Them All - The Fairbairn Sykes Fighting Knives

Darn things are tricky. A friend has a good reference book to determan type etc. but it is hard to spot some of the repops. I only have one (post war) as the prices on early ones are all over the place with no price guides that I am aware of to help establish values.

Here is Roy's re-assessment of my knife that I asked him about earlier and lost it in a computer crash I received his reply yesterday not 24 hours after contacting him thats how helpful this chap is a real diamond.
Quote ~
"Happy to hear from you again and also help.

The knife is a late-war (1943/4) Third Pattern F-S with correct scabbard.

The England stamp indicated it was never issued but sold as surplus into the US market post war and sold commercially."

Roy did reply and determined the knife is fake.

Picture 1, post 1, the "19" and "40" appear out of alignment (from the pic) which is not a good sign for something that was supposed to be made in a UK factory. I would have expected these numbers to be evenly spaced and in line with each other if the number was punched in a UK factory. This is because the normal way of stamping/punching a line of letters or numbers, in a factory, is to hold them in a tool holder which keeps the punches in-line. These ones look hand punched, i.e. out of alignment.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Picture 1, post 1, the "19" and "40" appear out of alignment (from the pic) which is not a good sign

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See the post...#13, determined to be repro.

The 1940 is actually perfectly spaced as is the broad arrow above it. It's just the wrong date for something that wasn't made until 1943. It's a well made piece. Just isn't real.

How sad to see so much effort go into trying to decieve people :thdown:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

trying to decieve

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One of the big gunshows I used to attend yearly here saw a group of Chinese nationals roaming it buying lots of mainly Nazi regalia. The buyer spoke no English but had a decent translator. Then there was his money guy, he just carried the cash. They came to a circle of us and worked their way around us buying $15,000 CDN of stuff from about eight of us. So much stuff that my boss used my handcart to carry it all out to their car... We were just one group, they worked the whole show for the two day event... We figure it was all going back to mainland China for reproduction.

Jim,
Highly likely as most of the Gallantry medal copies come from there, and also all things German stamped with a Swastika or Cross they produce. Shows that there is a lot of money in "rare" fakerage!!!

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

all things German

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Matter of fact Gil...I just answered a request for a Edelweiss hat pin on a local gun sale forum and was surprised that he couldn't find one for sale somewhere. I searched and ALL I could find was Chinese copies. I had one since the '70's so...it's going out today. All of them were coming from China, sad. Only $10CDN for a copy and my real one went for $50CDN...he was elated.

Nazi and CSA stuff...I just assume it’s fake and move on.
I don’t have the time to learn it...and the Nazi stuff gives me the willies anyway haha.

I couldn't properly identify Nazi stuff either...CSA I have to assume here in Canada is a non starter, even though some claim to have the "Real thing"...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

See the post...#13, determined to be repro.

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I did read post 13, thank-you, Jim.

The "1940" looked out of alignment when the image was enlarged and so I assumed that it was.

Is there a reason that everyone appears to assume that this number (1940) implies a date? Could it not just be intended for identification purposes?

I wasn't aware that dates were normally placed on F/S fighting knives, of any of the 3 patterns. I could go and check the 2 dozen or so in my collection but I have better things to do and I am reasonably confident that dates were not placed on F/S knives of any of the 3 patterns.

So why would a "faker" make a good job of producing a F/S knife and then spoil it by sticking a date on it, that is incorrect for that pattern of knife, when F/S knives don't normally have a date stamped on them?

I would say that the "1940" was applied at some time after manufacture of the knife by someone other than the knife manufacturer.

All I can figure on the 1940 is that someone learned that was when these knives were first manufactured and decided that would be the correct marking for it. I would also say based on condition, finish etc from handling it that it was done by the manufacturer at the time of manufacture. It's perfect in all aspects. equal depth, spacing, finish, evenness along with the broad arrow. That is one thing besides the date that made me question it. The broad arrow is an acceptance mark and would not have been applied by the manufacturer. So it would not be perfectly aligned or evenly applied in relation to the "date".

You often see the "caster's" marking on the aluminium grip of these 3rd pattern knives but it is not always present and it doesn't really mean much if it's not there.

One of my 3rd pattern F/S knife examples, someone at some time, years ago, has made and fitted a "first pattern" style "S" cranked cross piece. Is it incorrect and wrong? - Yes - Am I worried about it and planning to change it? - No

I remember the influx of F/S knives when I was a kid, most then sold as replicas etc, I've viewed a lot of originals when I could, but never bothered with them I was told what to look for by a certain dealer I know well..........

Strange you mention Medals Gil, forgers are even putting scratches, dinges etc on certain medals, some very good Waterloo fakes out there......

I've said it a few times before but you only have to look at the "Charge of the Light brigade" just under 700 took part and they reckon there is approx 2000 + medal groups in circulation relating to the Charge......

I've even met one of the blokes who was knocking out re stamped or stamped (accordingly) Crimean medals. (he did time for it in the 80's)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

I was told what to look for by a certain dealer I know well..........

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Why not share your knowledge with your fellow forum members, please, as that is the purpose of a "on-line forum".

I normally work on the principle of, if the item being offered is over-priced of not buying it.

The info he told me is out there on the web, but it was long ago, This was way back before mobile phones and PC's, ................ there's certain things I don't think should be shared on forums certainly pointers that could quickly turn a fake into the real deal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

there's certain things I don't think should be shared on forums certainly pointers that could quickly turn a fake into the real deal.

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I'm not sure that I agree, because if everyone knows about the "pointers" people may be less likely to buy fakes and, therefore, less people may get ripped off.

One of the "pointers" that I understood may suggest a repro/fake on a F/S fighting knife is an overly thick cross piece but this may not provide conclusive proof that the knife in question is a repro/fake. Like many things there may well be exceptions to this. Obviously there can be some debate and conjecture about what exactly is an overly thick cross piece on a F/S fighting knife.

There are firms making some lovely, quality, examples of the first pattern F/S fighting knife which are sold as reproductions.

The more info the fakers get about the originals the more and more and the better the fakes will become until not even the experts cannot tell whats what so for the average collector like myself who cannot afford to have 2-3 dozen F/S knives sitting in a drawer its vitally important that when I pulled the pin on the knife I have its an original not some $150 William Rodgers repro that from what I have seen that a personnal a friend brought are just junk.

So it would be like you save hard to buy in your opinion a nice No.4 "T" and spend quite a few thousand pounds getting one say conservatively $4500.oo GBP waltz off only to discover later on its an extremely well put together fake all because the information about all the little niceties which are on an original is broadcast to the wider community so we may benifit in knowledge but the real winners are the fakers not us.
So I reckon divulging all the look fors with various collectable militaria which allot of us here are into we leave it all in house and PM the knowledge between us and not the fakers it is always open that eventually they will get the information but hey lets hold off muddying the waters anymore than we have to to keep the fakers at bay, I'm 120% in agreance with bigduke6.
Fortunately as far as books go I'm pretty o'fare with whats what and spotting fakes (Hopefully) as for the other stuff I stick with proven items like cartridges and large caliber used shell cases.

It doesn't help matters much being told that your F/S fighting knife is a fake after you have already purchased it.

If there are ways of spotting fakes then lets have the information out in open so that everyone is aware of what to look for.

I am not going to P.M. the membership of Milserps Forum to tell them on what to look for when buying a F/S fighting knife; that is what we have the forum for.

Here are the pics of the knife that I inherited from my father who was a gun dealer in the 50-60's in Aussie,this knife was given too him in the 60's from an old digger, now I have it.
It's markings are number 4 on the top of the handle, looks like 10 or 01 near the hilt.
Not sure of original history or it's story but is a nice piece.

[ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 105911[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

The "4" may have indicated which casting die was used by the firm who made the handle.

Can you see a "crossed keys" symbol on the handle? I don't believe that it matters if it's not there.

Post-war nasty handle not filed or polished clean at seam as it should be for a war-time knife.
1940 stamp there to deceive, no 3rd patterns existed in 1940.
Scabbard has post war black elastic.
$50 - max.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aragorn243

My gut is telling me no, this is not legit. I know almost nothing about these however. Markings look good, scabbard looks good although possibly a late model NATO one. The problem in my mind is that there is no way one of this type would be dated 1940. Thinking this is a 3rd pattern which would be 1943 at the earliest. No other markings besides the date and broad arrow that I could find.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../KPBIhLp-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../19H4X1C-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../OgvUJkv-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../iFd3g3R-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../a4PzFEN-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../DJXPoMc-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../CtpN18L-1.jpg

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