NZ marked ROFM 1941 No4T

For sale in NZ there is a NZ marked 1941 ROFM No4T. From 15 years of watching this forum I think it's genuine, (no T or TR marks are normal for early production?) Not that i'm in a position to buy it now, the outbreak of the plague has ruined any employment opportunities for the forseeable future.

Supposedly it's from a batch of 200 or so which came to NZ after WW2

The renumbering of the scope number on the butt which is S51 marked, is a little odd with the round imprints of more modern number stamps.

What do you guys think?

Photobucket

From the limited views I could see on photobucket, it looks genuine enough to me. It has been rescoped, with the Mk1 it now has. I don't know if that was done by a civvy owner or whether that was common practice in NZ, (refitting another Mk1 scope rather than fitting a Mk2 or 3 scope). The bolt body numbers don't look original to me & I suspect the bolt is a replacement.

Interesting for me is the fact that the bracket bears the much less common RBG2 (Rose Brothers Gainsborough, inspector number 2, presumably) inspectors mark within a circle, rather than just JG or KD as is found on the vast majority. I don't know but suspect it is probably only found on early brackets. The rifle numbering stamped into the bracket looks a little amateurish to me, though I haven't seen a lot of 4T's worked on by Kiwi armourers. However, I would have expected a neater job than that. I seriously wonder, but am by no means sure, if the rescoping is down to a civvy owner......

First off, Photobucket is a nothing but @&$%^# pain: these threads are meaningless in the future without photos.

Clearly the front pad screws have been replaced at some point, but the rifle itself looks right to me. I am going to respectfully disagree on the bolt numbers, but it would help to have more and better photos, showing the bolt (and the rest of the rifle) more fully.

I think the rifle probably had a Mk.I cocking piece originally as mine which was a few hundred higher in serial number did, and it was clearly original. IIRC others in this SN range we have seen here did also. The finish on that now fitted differs from the rest of the action too.

Those modern number stamps give themselves away by their circular imprints in wood. ;) The original Kodak Ltd. Mk.I scope number is clear enough though.

Can't comment on the bracket re-number as Peter has told us in the past that barring out rather than erasure was the SOP when numbers were changed.

Someone out there may be looking for that Watson scope No.1519.

There is one good(?) sign though: the number barred out on the bracket is 18700 which is probably also a 1941 Maltby number. Is it possible that a number of Matlby No4(T) rifles were shipped to NZ at about the same time? It does make sense, since what is produced in close proximity usually goes into and is taken out of stores in close proximity.

The flathead screws used may be what was available in NZ?

When did these rifles leave NZ service?

As an NZ service firearms collector and a Maltby nut, I would dearly love that rifle!

She's right enough but she's been through the mill somewhat, possibly all down to the military, possibly not, but the basic rifle, scope & bracket are all genuine.

Thanks Rob, I forgot to mention the flat head front pad screws. Mind I've seen some on rifles from military stores that had been replaced like that. Suspect what was available was used so long as it did the job!

Attachment 106350

Thank you for the replies. Here is the only other photo but it does not really show more info

I do not know when the rifles left NZ service but it is rumoured they went to the police and who knows what they did to them.

Oddly the oversized 1's on the bracket seem to be over stamped over smaller 1's underneath.

I have seen one other No4T in NZ that had modern renumbering stamps on the butt and that rifle looked messed up and ameturishly renumbered on the metal parts.

I have personally viewed this particular rifle and then owner even let me strip it down to check the numbers on the inside of the topwoods and barrel. Hes had this rifle for 10 years and didnt even know how to take the scope off let alone strip it! It is 100% genuine, However as pointed out its had some parts changed during its service life like the bolt, lower forewwod, front pad and screws. Now the screws I suspect are a NZ rebuild thing. My NZ Maltby T has the exact same screws along with two other savage Ts that I have seen. I sent roger pane some photos of my nz maltby a few months ago showing the same screws. So we either got a batch of rifles missing the scopes and rebuilt them here or just changed what need to be changed during a repair. The NZ armourers were a little agricultural back in the day. I don't think I've seen one matching rifle and scope/bracket combo here apart from barbers minter unissued T

What do you reckon about the modern number stamps? You've seen more No4 T's in NZ most, it is entirely possible it is a NZ armourer thing.

Yea I wasnt too sure about the scope number in the stock with the light circle mark, one of the savage Ts had the same font and circle marks too. At a guess each military base at the time like Burnahm or Waiouru may of had different number punch sets?? Purely speculation on my part tho. Or a civvy could of banged them in!

The forend looks correct to me and one doubts there were spare Mk.I forends supplied in beech to N.Z., and if there were, small chance one got put on this rifle which coincidentally would have had one originally.

From memory that forend is savage marked and no serial numbers at all.

When did the DE over crown stamp come into play again?
I don’t see it above the wrist left of the bolt race.

If you are referring to the D6/E stamp, I believe it was applied sometime in 1943. I'm sure Roger can add much more than I can, but the 1943's are an interesting bunch. I have a a few 1943 T's, and they run the gamut from no "T", no D6/E, no S or S51 to having them all in the span of a years time. As others have said earlier, 1943 seems to be the year the markings were mostly standardized. I say "mostly" because I also have a 1941 maltby T, and the "T" and "TR" were both applied later on the butt socket.

Roy- that's a beauty of a rifle, by the way!

Yes, and the D6E stamp was supposed to go on at the end of the conversion, except I have an unconverted TR 1944 M47C action with the D6 and D7 stamps showing. :confused:

Me too. I've also owned early H&H conversions (B 1941 & ROFM 1941 rifles) that DID have the D6E Harry Hardwick examiner's stamp, but not at the rear of the body in the usual place, rather stamped on the edge of the Knox of the barrel! I kid ye not.... IIRC I posted a photo in a previous thread a few years ago. However, I'm sure smle addict is quite correct about the general significance of 1943 becoming the year of standardisation of markings.

I find the census number very interesting, I am assuming the '20' under the NZ marking is the *Census number.

I've never seen a two digit number, so I wonder if the batch of 4T's provided was sequentially numbered?

* NZ individually numbered all service firearms, from the P53,(or perhaps Snider) through to the L1A1 and the Sterling.

Finally discontinuing the numbering system in 1959.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Yes, and the D6E stamp was supposed to go on at the end of the conversion, except I have unconverted TR 1944 M47C action with the D6 and D7 stamps showing.

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I had a "post war" dated "commercial" BSA No4MkI which had the D6E inspectors stamp in the conventional No4T location.

Raises the question of whether the rifle was returned to BSA by H&H, or was D6E based at BSA?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I find the census number very interesting, I am assuming the '20' under the NZ marking is the *Census number.

I've never seen a two digit number, so I wonder if the batch of 4T's provided was sequentially numbered?
...snip....

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My NZ property marked 1942 dated Savage No4MkI(T) has a low survey number IIRC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I find the census number very interesting, I am assuming the '20' under the NZ marking is the *Census number.

I've never seen a two digit number, so I wonder if the batch of 4T's provided was sequentially numbered?

* NZ individually numbered all service firearms, from the P53,(or perhaps Snider) through to the L1A1 and the Sterling.

Finally discontinuing the numbering system in 1959.

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I also have been noting the rack numbers on the NZ marked Ts as I see them. 12,20,33,49,64,71 so far I'm sure there will be more I will come across one day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tonyd

I also have been noting the rack numbers on the NZ marked Ts as I see them. 12,20,33,49,64,71 so far I'm sure there will be more I will come across one day.

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Very interesting Tony, so it appears the No4T's did receive their own (presumably sequencel) census number range?

Well yes it certainly looks like the NZ purchased ones did, the story is we got a batch of 100 in the 50s. #33 has 33 0f 100 stamped into the wrist.

Interesting that #33 has 33/100 but it seems none of the other NZ T's have the shipment size. Tony, you'll be writing the history of the NZ No4T at this rate!