L42A1 (new to me), Rare Maltby Conversion

Gentlemen,

Interested in the opinions of the group, as I know little about these rifles.

I bought this from a fuzzy GunBroker listing last month, and although there is one major disappointment to it (mismatched "out of service replacement" bolt), I am very happy with my find (pending a check with a borescope).

In collecting up the accessories, I have learned that the L42 community is incredibly kind and helpful. At least six members of this group have already helped me to understand my rifle better, and have found and sold me some hard-to-locate CES items. Brian Dick is of course among these, but I am not sure if I have permission to mention the others.

I am grateful to all.

L42A1 Rifle - Album on Imgur

Best,
Trog

Trog,
The good news is its a L42A1 rifle which was sent to Donnington secure building 69/671 on the 22nd of December 1971 out of a batch of 43. Hope this helps you with part of its history. The bolt may have been a simple cockup, somewhere by several bolts laying around and the wrong one picked up. Might be worth asking the seller if he has any other Lee's and check the bolts for you!!!
All the best
Gil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Trog,
The good news is its a L42A1 rifle which was sent to Donnington secure building 69/671 on the 22nd of December 1971 out of a batch of 43. Hope this helps you with part of its history. The bolt may have been a simple cockup, somewhere by several bolts laying around and the wrong one picked up. Might be worth asking the seller if he has any other Lee's and check the bolts for you!!!
All the best
Gil

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Gil, thanks!

Sadly, the seller offered this on behalf of the family of the late former owner. There is no information to be gained from that avenue. I just hope the gunsmith confirms it is safe to shoot! Unsure how to proceed if he does not.

It's certainly a lesson to us--WRITE DOWN WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT YOUR COLLECTION!!!! Even if you don't care how much money your heirs clear, it would be good for your collection to end up in the right hands after your death.

Oh--and Gil, you're one of the folks who helped my to understand this rifle better earlier. Thank you.

Is there any way to check to see if other Maltbys were converted into L42A1s? I'm given to understand that it's possible this is the only one.

Best,
Trog

I don't think it is, although as not many were converted to 4T's in the first place proportionately few would have gone on to be converted to L42A1 specs. There are a few serial numbers on 'the list' that would probably indicate Maltby produced rifles. It's certainly a rare piece, regardless.

The bolt is correct insofar as it has the proper 19 Ton proof marks, as does the bolt head obviously.

Unless the previous owner had several L42s it would very unlikely a mix up occurred there.

What number is on the bolt, maybe it was just a swap between two rifles and the other one could be found?

Yes thats what I first thought, an innocent mix up, once the firearms guy has checked it over for you, it should be ok. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The bolt is correct insofar as it has the proper 19 Ton proof marks, as does the bolt head obviously.

Unless the previous owner had several L42s it would very unlikely a mix up occurred there.

What number is on the bolt, maybe it was just a swap between two rifles and the other one could be found?

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I've added a photo of the number on the bolt.

I think it reads A11982, which would appear to make it the bolt from another Maltby.

Didn't have the benefit of the photo's initially, but just had a peek. I wonder if the rifle has spent time in Germany since its release from service? I think it is all genuine, but I do wonder if the scope bracket & scope have been re-matched to the rifle in its civvy life. The font of the scope number on the butt looks very Germanic to me. (After they were released a lot of L42's ended up on the German market). The rifle serial on the bracket has also been stamped over the black paint, causing some flaking, not before it was applied. I mean no offence to Troglodyte, as I am pretty sure he has a genuine L42, & of a 'rare manufacturer', as it were, but I do wonder who exactly matched the scope & bracket to this particular rifle. She's a peach, regardless, & I'd certainly give her house room........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Didn't have the benefit of the photo's initially, but just had a peek. I wonder if the rifle has spent time in Germany since its release from service? I think it is all genuine, but I do wonder if the scope bracket & scope have been re-matched to the rifle in its civvy life. The font of the scope number on the butt looks very Germanic to me. (After they were released a lot of L42's ended up on the German market). The rifle serial on the bracket has also been stamped over the black paint, causing some flaking, not before it was applied. I mean no offence to Troglodyte, as I am pretty sure he has a genuine L42, & of a 'rare manufacturer', as it were, but I do wonder who exactly matched the scope & bracket to this particular rifle. She's a peach, regardless, & I'd certainly give her house room........

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I take no offense--I'd rather know the truth!

Germany would have made for an interesting post-service travel history. Regardless, I hope to keep it in place for the next little while. I've spent more assembling CES than I did on the rifle!

---------- Post added at 08:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:02 AM ----------

Reviewing the photo DRP mentioned, the same numbers seem to have been struck twice for the final serial number.

Well no record of A11982 on the L42A1 list, thought a just in case search might help!:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Well no record of A11982 on the L42A1 list, thought a just in case search might help!:madsmile:

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Bolt and head have the proof marks. Fake? Or possibly a half-done armory replacement at the end of the rifle's service life?

It's one imported by Navy Arms Co. in the 90's. I doubt it's been to Germany post service as they were all purchased directly from stores at Donnington.

Maybe it's a legit rescoping then.......it could be that it was in Germany with the BAOR & got reworked in workshops where locally sourced stamps were used.........anything's possible, but I've seen a couple of other L42's that had their saleability 'improved' using teutonic looking number stamps. One I used to own, & it did indeed come out of Germany. Quite a few went there although I can't remember who had them........quite possibly Frankonia.

Roger, yes it was Frankonia who sold off many L42A1s in Germany. But they are easily identified by the FWW stamp on them. You should know it, it was on the rifle you got from me ;).

I must have been a very poor student.;)

I uploaded four more photos to the Imgur album. Two questions:

1. Are the markings on the thumbscrews correct? I'd never noticed these on other rifles. of course I wasn't looking.

2. Were either of the lined out serial numbers converted to L42s? I read them as:

- AS 5908, AS 5308, AS 5903, or AS 5303
- 13C8134, 13C8164, 13C8184, or 13C1894

If so, we may know the correct owner to the scope. If not, this rifle may in fact be correct to the scope.

Best,
Trog

1. Yes, I have quite a few of them marked like this. I am not sure but suspect they may be post WW2 (possibly L42 era) replacements, perhaps made at the time of the manufacture of the IWS brackets. If anyone has more definite info on them please do let us know.
2. I've had a quick look at the list & the only 13C L42 serial number I can find is 13C3651 which went into store at Donnington on 31/7/75. However, more luck with AS 5908, which was one of a batch converted to L42 & sent out to Donnington on 29/11/71.

The thumbscrew markings are correct... for an early enfield converted trials rifle. I have a very early rose brothers bracket that has that same stylized "D" (with broad arrow) which is actually an EFD and superimposed to that D. I believe these were found on early trials rifles converted by enfield to sniper pattern. While the brackets were produced at Rose Brothers and Daglish, I read somewhere Enfield produced the remaining parts (scope pads, thumbscrew knobs). I don't remember where I read that, so hopefully someone else can elaborate.

Attached are pics of the thumbscrews with efd/broad marks arrow on my trials rifle.

I hope that's the case, as I have a few!:lol: They just look so......new...... & all of the ones I have are blacked rather than blued.

So the thumbscrews are good, and the bracket was on another L42 before being put on to this one. Still no clue whether this one got its scope and mount from official or unofficial sources, given the Teutonic-looking scope number on the butt, and the atypical stamping and overstamping of the rifle serial number on the mount (and the overstamping seems to have happened after the bracket was refinished).

As to the bolt, any thoughts on how a bolt with a non-L42 serial number came to have the 19T proof stamps on it, but was never re-serialed to match the rifle?

If the proof stamps are legit, I'd guess a replacement bolt from stores that the armorer (or a later owner who bought the part) failed to renumber?

Best,
Trog

I'm pretty sure the bolt markings are legit, although they were marked similarly for other 7.62mm variants of the No4, such as the L39 & Enforcer. It could be from one of those rifles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I'm pretty sure the bolt markings are legit, although they were marked similarly for other 7.62mm variants of the No4, such as the L39 & Enforcer. It could be from one of those rifles.

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That makes more sense. Would the bolt still be compatible (assuming headspace checks out)? Was A11982 on the list of L39A1s, Enforcers, or Envoys?

Thanks,
Trog

And the renumbering of that bolt may have occurred subsequent to the 7.62mm proofing.....

Those Maltby L42A1 that I am aware of. Those with the L42A1 list could confirm.
12976 Troglodyte in USA (discussed in this thread)
13328 garrettasherarms1 in USA
16574 (scope survives)
16583 diguuangco in USA
18491 Lance in USA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seaforth72

Those Maltby L42A1 that I am aware of. Those with the L42A1 list could confirm.
12976 Troglodyte in USA (discussed in this thread)
13328 garrettasherarms1 in USA
16574 (scope survives)
16583 diguuangco in USA
18491 Lance in USA

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Thanks. So, not unique, but also not common!

Filling the box CES can and will make you crazy and broke. What have you found and what are you seeking ?..:confused:

Cheers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MJ1

Filling the box CES can and will make you crazy and broke. What have you found and what are you seeking ?..:confused:

Cheers

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I've found most of it, but here are my gaps:

- Transit chest
- Lens cover
- IWS bracket
- IWS scope
- Plastic scout telescope case
- Soft rifle cover
- Sniper pocket book/aide memoire

I have a few of the H&K lens brushes for the PSG-1 sniper rifle, which are often (even on these pages) mistaken for the IWS brush used on the L42. I also have a Swedish rifle cleaning kit that I'm going to use a Dremel on to make into a replica brush bottle. These aren't, strictly speaking, original, but they're very close, and good enough for me.

Best,
Trog

Incidentally, a big reason my CES want list is so light is Nigel Greenaway, "Nigel" in the forums. He was able to find a number of otherwise impossible to source items, most importantly a correct scope tin in near mint condition. Having the right ancillary parts helps a lot in enjoying this fine rifle.

Now I need for my range to re-open!

Finally got my workbench clear enough to properly break down the rifle, and got the small parts cleaned. Photos posted into the album linked in Post #1:

L42A1 Rifle - Album on Imgur

Notes/questions:

- The barrel band and the handguard ring both have what feels like 220 grit sandpaper carefully trimmed and inserted between the metal ring and the wood (last two photos). What is its purpose?

- The butt seems to be birch dyed to look like walnut. Why mismatch it?

- Long Branch front sight protector, wartime C broad arrow stamp.

- In the absence of the little pin that usually holds in the rear sight pin, I wasn't comfortable trying to remove the rear sight for cleaning. Suggestions?

Given the near total lack of finish wear to the parts, I'm guessing this rifle hasn't been fired much since overhaul. There was grit on the parts, but not much (any?) carbon to speak of.

If the headspace checks out, is it possible the two major flaws (mismatched bolt, and scope mount unrefinished following re-numbering) came from the rifle being in overhaul when the turn-in order came? "Bolt fits, sight fits, box it up and send it in"?

Or is there a more plausible explanation?

Anyway interested in everybody's thoughts. I'll clean the receiver and barrel today if my "day job" work goes quickly.

Best,
Trog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Well no record of A11982 on the L42A1 list, thought a just in case search might help!:madsmile:

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Could that serial number be for an Enforcer, or an Envoy?

No real chance of bottoming that one out I'm afraid, as the lists from Leeds Armoury only give the final Enforcer/Envoy number ie 099 etc no original serial numbers appear to be recorded on anything I have access to.

I suppose there was no need for cross referencing at the time of conversion, they needed a number and it made sense to numerically start afresh.

Suffice it to say, if yours was an Enforcer it would be fairly clearly marked in some way. I don't hold the Envoy lists. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

No real chance of bottoming that one out I'm afraid, as the lists from Leeds Armoury only give the final Enforcer/Envoy number ie 099 etc no original serial numbers appear to be recorded on anything I have access to.

I suppose there was no need for cross referencing at the time of conversion, they needed a number and it made sense to numerically start afresh.

Suffice it to say, if yours was an Enforcer it would be fairly clearly marked in some way. I don't hold the Envoy lists. ;)

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That in itself is useful info. Now if I could find out where replacement bolts came from, that might support (or invalidate, depending on the answer) my admittedly wishful hypothesis that the bolt (since it is NOT from another L42A1 or an Enforcer but IS correctly proofed for an L42A!) was mated to the receiver during overhaul, and the system was simply boxed and shipped for disposal after the orders arrived, without wasting time renumbering the bolt or refinishing the scope mount, since it was headed for the chipper anyway.

The bits of abrasive paper are a common finding - they were used to 'tighten up' a loose fitting rear guard. Same principle with the barrel band.

Seen a lot over here on rifles formerly used by target shooters. Any self-respecting armourer would probably have a fit....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

The bits of abrasive paper are a common finding - they were used to 'tighten up' a loose fitting rear guard. Same principle with the barrel band.

Seen a lot over here on rifles formerly used by target shooters. Any self-respecting armourer would probably have a fit....

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Thanks. Guess I’d best toss the paper, then!

Reassembling the triggerguard, I seem to be missing the lock washer and seating plate that are secured by the king screw (swivel small arms sling).

Should I have these?

Have a look at the inletting for the trigger guard on the underside of the forend - at the front, where the front trigger guard screw passes through, there will probably be a steel plate set into it. If there is, you don't need a collar (the tubular spacer), assuming that was one of the things you were referring to. To the best of my knowledge you still need to have the little spring washer.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4098
This might be of some help?

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Originally Posted by DanL96a1

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=4098
This might be of some help?

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Thanks. I have a hard copy courtesy of Brian Dick--it shows the parts in question, but my rifle lacks them. Was interested in learning how close to reality the catalogue is.

I have a lock washer, unsure if I can even find a seating plate. All of the other parts, to include the little spacer tube, are already present.

I gather the 'old method' of using the collar was still considered acceptable, too. If you have any trouble accessing a collar or spring washer pm me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Didn't have the benefit of the photo's initially, but just had a peek. I wonder if the rifle has spent time in Germany since its release from service? I think it is all genuine, but I do wonder if the scope bracket & scope have been re-matched to the rifle in its civvy life. The font of the scope number on the butt looks very Germanic to me. (After they were released a lot of L42's ended up on the German market). The rifle serial on the bracket has also been stamped over the black paint, causing some flaking, not before it was applied. I mean no offence to Troglodyte, as I am pretty sure he has a genuine L42, & of a 'rare manufacturer', as it were, but I do wonder who exactly matched the scope & bracket to this particular rifle. She's a peach, regardless, & I'd certainly give her house room........

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Since reading this post, I have found three or four more internet examples of L42s with the scope number marked on the butt in the same font.

I've also since sent the rifle off to Brian Dick for servicing, to gain the peace of mind a "clean bill of health" gives. Brian has confirmed that the scope was not collimated with the bore of this rifle (he corrected this problem before returning the rifle to me).

I believe the foregoing solves the question of the origin of the "Germanic" font--it had to have been applied post-service, and this appears to have happened with several other L42 rifles as well.

I hope the others have since been correctly collimated as mine was, so they can be enjoyed to their full potential.

The only problem I have with this hypothesis is that the rifles sold off in the 90s by the MoD were delivered straight from the disposals unit at Donnington to places like Charnwood Ordnance in England and Navy Arms in the USA. Siome did go to Germany but we're not talking about those here. How could someone remark them after leaving military stores? My guess, (and it's just a guess), is that they were legitimately renumbered by Armourers and the metal stamps used were also later than the old fonts that we are used to seeing on original rifles, (stamps purchase from Europe?). I was told years ago that the Armourers were also the new younger breed as the older experienced guys were mostly retired or gone to the big REME base in the sky. Some of the rifles I had were marked with the rifle serial number on the top of the wrist like some wartime Maltby produced No.4s examined over the years. The standard protocols were not adhered to. Maybe Peter can chime in with his thoughts since he was there! I do know one thing, many of the rifles I've imported and worked on that were survivors of the gas axe, had been flogged to death in class after class at the sniper schools after the L96 was adopted. The unit Armourers most likely had their hands full keeping them in spec up until they were released from service and sold off. We always guessed that at the very least, half of them were scrapped because they were just plain worn out.

I suspect you may well be right Brian, although one minor point (which probably doesn't alter anything) is that the L42's that Charnwood got came from the MOD via Dince Hill. Charnwood were allowed to have them so long as they exported them all again. This led to the daft situation where they had to export them & then reimport some of them (60 IIRC) from CS in Canada. I know for a fact that Rob Hallam had about thirty examples in his 'personal collection' at one point! He kept so many that when they did have the big auction at Bonhams in 1998 he flooded the market & they weren't selling. Can you believe that the way things are now?! I also know how much Charnwood paid for them, rifles complete with pretty much the CES in the crates.................oh for a time machine!

You've got that right Rog! I thought I'd die with the last ones I bought and imported. They were cheap too and repaired when I sold them. I still have a 1975 in my collection that was Rob's. My favorite is a 1971 that had a telescope PL described as one of the best he'd seen in years when he serviced it. It's a mismatch bracket but collimates properly and the one I shoot. The rifle is also a very nice one that wasn't dragged through many fences!