M1 Garand Clip Hard to Seat

Not long a ago I purchased from an estate sale a July, 42 Springfield M1 Garand. All proper Draw numbers on parts, right stock markings, really good shape. Does have a 1946 barrel with clean bore, nice rifling. Bought late November, haven't had much time or good weather to fire. Did run through around 48 rds after purchasing. Really good price. The only problem I had was difficulty in seating a loaded enbloc clip. I could seat it approx. 3/4 of the way and had to really push hard to fully seat. Really hard!The first round didn't want to chamber very easily without helping it. All remaining rounds would chamber without problems. All firing, brass ejection, and the enbloc clip ejecting were no problem. I noticed that the rails at the bottom portion of the clip rails seemed to have a lot of hard grease and debris which I thought maybe causing the hard clip seating. I was using clips that I've used with my March, 55 Springfield M1 that worked fine with that rifle. Just haven't gotten around to messing with it until last weekend, got it all lubed up today and same problem persists.

Stripped the M1 down with exception of the trigger group. All parts appeared normal. Super cleaning job performed.

1) Rounds all loaded correctly. PMC ammo that I've used in my other M1 with no problem.
2) The follower will move up and down with no problem. Will bottom out with no felt
obstruction.
3) There doesn't appear to be any obstruction with the follower rod.
4) No other apparent/seen obstructions with any parts.
5) No burrs in receiver rails that the enbloc clip rides in. I did use a fine round and flat stone
on the rails.
6) Bullet guide appears ok with no interference seen with the follower arm.
7) Clips that I've used in my 1955 M1 were used that always worked in that rifle.
8) I polished the sides of the clips with a fine emery cloth where they ride in the receiver
rails.
9) After through cleaning of all parts and relubing, the problem still persists.

I checked the above items after checking a online M1 Garand trouble shooting site. I'm puzzled as to what is causing the problem. The gunshop owner that did the FFL transfer advised as far as he knew the M1 worked as designed, but no way of contacting owner. Any ideas and help/suggestions very much appreciated. Gotta be something I'm not seeing or aware of.

Does the clip with no ammo in it bottom out with no issues?

PPU .30-06 has some issues in M1 clips because the extractor groove is shorter (European holdover), not sure if PMC is similar. The solution with the PPU ammo is to load the clips by inserting cartridges, and then retracting slightly until the extractor groove slips into the ridge in the clips.

Der Jagar, Several thoughts. Since you have an M1 already I must assume that you know how to load M1 clips with ammo.
-Remember, all rounds must bottom out in the clip and the first round in the clip is on the right. Will work on the left but easier to load for a right handed person if the first round is on the right.
-High rounds will rub on the receiver/trigger group and be hard to load. Use US produced clips ie. SA BW etc. Korean clips sometimes cause problems.
-It is normal for the first round NOT to chamber in new or highly parked clips. A bump on the op rod to get the first round off the clip is common.
-Get a new clip and with dummies or live ammo on the range reload the same clip several times. Inspect clip for rub marks. You may have a burr somewhere on the receiver or trigged group.
-Not all clips load as easily as others. That is why old M1 match shooters had clips that loaded easily. Check out Youtube for how to load the M1 rifle videos. The US Army training films are the best.
-Lastly, When loading a clip do not pull the op rod back with the loading hand so that it unlatches the op rod so that you have to hold the op rod back under spring tension while loading.
Regards.

All good info previously, I will ask you to take you trigger group assembly and check the function of the clip ejector spring, if it's original it may have failed, though limited does it still function?

Here's and image of what the guys are talking about WRT the clips

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../aB0lBLK-1.jpg

I had over 100 clips for M1 so if I ran into this I just switched clips. I used US issue, WW2 as much as possible and only ran into this with black park Greek clips. I don't think it's as technical as all that... Change clips and sell the offender.

Thanks for the replies. First off I apologize ref a mistake on original post. The ammo I was using is PPU--not PMC. Late nite written post, do have PMC ammo also but not '06.
1) Clips are loaded correctly, all rounds seated to bottom of clip, top round on right side when loading. All bullet tips even.
2) Empty clip will drop all the way to bottom with no hesitation.
3) Ejector spring appears ok when viewing and operating with trigger group off rifle. It tosses empty clip high with ping. I did check it as much as possible.
4) Also, the receiver isn't a pre-cut, rewelded one.
5) It did cross my mind that maybe WW2 area receivers may have had tighter tolerances than Korean era ones, but have never read anything of that to be. The thought of the enbloc clips I have may not match up to early WW2 made rifles crossed my mind also.

The subject of the enbloc clip working ok in my '55 M1, but not my '42 M1 I can see possibly in the posts referencing US and foreign made one. When I bought my '55 M1 four years ago, I bought a small quantity of clips from a on-line supplier that specializes in M1 Garand parts and accessories. Being new to the game, I bought figuring if made for M1, they'd work and they did in my '55 rifle. They also had for sale marked US made WW2 era and other US made ones, but I bought a dozen of the cheaper ones for what 3-4 of the marked US ones cost. I did check the ones I have and on the circle on the outside of the bottom of these clips there is no letters/numbers, just a blank circle. My Poyer M1 Garand book indicates these are of Tiawan manufacturer. Maybe the problem of my problem.

I'm going to do two things. 1) I'm going to try some Remington 30/06 150 grain FMJ ammo that I originally bought for my '55 M1, then realized a more specific M1 Garand '06 ammo needed to be used that was better for the Op rod and see how they fit and load in my '42 M1. I've just been shooting this ammo in my '06 Springfields. 2) Attempt to buy some US made enbloc clips with proper markings and see how they fare. In fact, I know a M1 shooter that I can first make the 50 mile rd trip drive and try some of his US made clips that I know he has. AFJon I'm going to have to figure out some of the info on your post, understand some. Thanks, nice picture info.
I see at the bottom of this page there are other older posts ref the same thing I'm having problems with. Just skimmed them, gonna go back and read line for line.
I'll get back with results, appreciate the posted info and any other. Thanks veddy much!!

There was just an article in the recent issue of the Garand Collector's Journal about ammo and the Garand, you aren't going to bend a Garand Op-Rod with any commercial ammo in the 150-180 grain range. IMO, the concern over "Garand specific" .30-06 is over-hyped.

PPU, I shoot frequently in my Garand because it is low cost and good quality ammo. But, the extractor groove is shorter. The solution is to pull back slightly when loading the clips so the extractor groove catches in the clip ridge. You want about 1/16-1/8" gap between the base of the cartridge and the back of the clip.

Careful when selecting clips that are supposedly USGI, as new...they could easily be brand new Chinese copies. I know for a fact they make DA clips for instance. I can't say I ever wore out a WW2 USGI clips either. Shining and edgy but still serviceable after dozens of uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

The subject of the enbloc clip working ok in my '55 M1, but not my '42 M1 I can see possibly in the posts referencing US and foreign made one. When I bought my '55 M1 four years ago, I bought a small quantity of clips from a on-line supplier that specializes in M1 Garand parts and accessories. Being new to the game, I bought figuring if made for M1, they'd work and they did in my '55 rifle. They also had for sale marked US made WW2 era and other US made ones, but I bought a dozen of the cheaper ones for what 3-4 of the marked US ones cost. I did check the ones I have and on the circle on the outside of the bottom of these clips there is no letters/numbers, just a blank circle. My Poyer M1 Garand book indicates these are of Tiawan manufacturer. Maybe the problem of my problem.

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OK, when I wrote this post this AM, I had to be some place, but wanted to get this posted before I left. I grabbed two of the clips I had been using and checked their backsides and couldn't see any markings. Didn't use any light or other aids. Looked like a blank circle which Poyer's M1 Garand book indicated they were of Tiawan origin. I did buy some clips from 'AmmoGarand' which the majority of them were still in the box they came in. I assumed the two I checked were from AmmoGarand. NOT! When I bought my '55 Garand via Gunbroker, the seller tossed in six clips and those were the ones I was using most. That part of my history with my '55 Garand was recalled when I started examining the clips. Wetting the back of the clips and using a light, I could see BRW 6 which indicated Borg Warner post WW2 manufacture according to Poyer's book. The stamping was covered up a lot with the packerizing, but wetting them, the stamping was readable. Checked the box of clips from AmmoGarand and they were all AEC 3 clips (Aggressive Engineering Corp).

I did some measuring of the three factory 30/06 ammo brass I have 1) PPU 150g. FMJ (ammo designed for M1 Garand) 2) Remington UMC 150g FMJ and 3) Remington Corelokt 150g SP. I was curious about the brass dimensions as reported by Hcompton79 reference the PPU being different in the rim/groove area. ( All in inches) Both Rem brass measured 0.466 rim diameter while the PPU was 0.468--0.002 larger. Both Remingtons diameter at the base of the brass wall was 0.463, while the PPU was 0.467--0.004 larger. The diameter of the Remington's grooves were 0.406, while the PPU's was 0.413---0.007 larger. As reported by Hcompton79 the groove width of PPU ammo is shorter and it was. The Remington brass had approx. (as far as I could determine) a groove width of 0.090- 0.093, while the PPU's groove width was 0.067-0.069 making the PPU's 0.023-.0024 narrower. I could visually see the difference. With the PPU brass being a bit fatter at the base of the wall, I thought maybe that extra 'meat' might be pressing the sidewall of the clips out making them a tight fit, but they work fine in my '55 Garand. What Hcompton79 advised about the extractor groove is noted, but my '55 Garand ate up the PPU ammo like a hungry dog in a butcher shop.
Question--even though the back of the clips indicate they are of US manufacturer, have there been any foreign (maybe Chinese) made clips with US stampings, ie counterfeit, made to look like US made?

I tried both types Remington ammo in the same clips I had previously loaded the PPU ammo in and tried them in my '42 Garand. Same hard seating and problems with bolt chambering first round. I tired some of the AEC 3 clips with all three variety's of ammo and had the same problems, ie. hard insertion and bolt not chambering first round. It doesn't even strip the 1st, moves it ahead approx. 1/4", then I have to push on the Op Rod, even slightly lifting the point of the bullet up some. After the first round is chambered, I'll pull back on the Op rod to unload and at the same time push on the clip latch release and the clip with seven rounds will come out flying with wings. THIS makes me wonder if the Ejector Clip Spring that has been talked and written about as a possible culprit of my Garands problem could be at fault. I wouldn't think if a spring has that much power to eject a clip with seven rds could be weak. ??

Not sure what is going on?? Would it be possible even though when I inspected all of the parts for any damage, worn areas, etc they looked fine and seemed to function while the stock, barrel/receiver, and trigger groups were separate, that once they are as a unit, something is binding. One area that I checked but couldn't see any problems when the three major goups were apart was any biding by the follower rod and the bullet guide. Once everything is together there is some binding. All above my knowledge and 'pay grade' as it's said. As I previously advised, the FFL holder that was selling the gun on behalf of the owner (estate) advised as far as he knew the gun functioned without any problems.

Hcompton79--noted your info on loading the PPU ammo different in the clip. Will give it a shot. It's been rainy and not shooting weather here in Iowa lately, so will try when I can take the Garand out and shoot.
AFJon---I figured out what you were referring to in your ammo/clip picture.
Steve762---Your last comment on not holding back on the op rod handle is taken. I was doing it as loading normal with the op rod being held back with the outside of my little right hand finger and trying to push the loaded clip down with right hand thumb didn't work. I would have to hold the op rod back with right hand thumb and push the loaded clip down with pressure using my left hand thumb. Not the way its supposed to work.

Any and all suggestions welcome. When the weather becomes better, I need to take Garand out and do some shooting vs just inserting loaded clips and ejecting. Want to see what happens. Some of the experience a lot of you have will be needed to solve this-has me frustrated. I never had been around a M1 until four years ago so I'm a fairly 'NewBe'! Thank you in advance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

Question--even though the back of the clips indicate they are of US manufacturer, have there been any foreign (maybe Chinese) made clips with US stampings, ie counterfeit, made to look like US made?

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Guess you missed my statement here...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Careful when selecting clips that are supposedly USGI, as new...they could easily be brand new Chinese copies. I know for a fact they make DA clips for instance.

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The inside of these clips isn't parkerized with a thick coating of parkerizing by chance? I read back but didn't find any mention...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Guess you missed my statement here...



The inside of these clips isn't parkerized with a thick coating of parkerizing by chance? I read back but didn't find any mention...

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No, I didn't miss your statement, in writing my last post I forgot about it-my apologies. The site I bought them from indicated they were of US manufacturer, AEC 3-same manufacturer that previously made MILSPEC clips for US Military. Being the clips don't say 'Made In China' I assume they are as reported by AmmoGarand. I think I'll contact them today and ask. Maybe I got duped! 'browningautorifle'---Educate me. What is 'DA' that you advise in your post "I know for a fact they make DA clips for instance"?

I did post that the clips I was using in my '42 Garand were the same that I had used previously in my '55 Garand with the PPU ammo and had ran around 8 clips using the Remington 150g FMJ ammo with no problem in seating clips or any other problems with feeding, ejection of brass or clips. These same clips, some of which were both BRW6 and some of the AEC3's I purchased from Ammogarand worked fine in the '55 Garand. These same clips using the PPU and Remington ammo and having used some fine emery cloth on the sides of the clips (polished up) seated hard in the '42 Garand. That's what has me 'duped'! Evidently something isn't clicking right within the bowls of that '42 Garand only thing I can figure out, maybe "different strokes for different Garand's" as far as enbloc clips go!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

What is 'DA' that you advise in your post "I know for a fact they make DA clips for instance"?

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DAQ would be clips made by Dominion Arsenal Quebec for the US and are marked with a small DA in the back. I know for a fact because I've bought "New in the box" clips that turned out to be Chinese copies. I think it was the parkerizing finish that made me investigate, was lighter color. Also they didn't take the ammo as well or fit right. There are others... Here's another discussion here. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=24290

I'm trying to find some proof of my accusation that the Chinese have copied clips but can't lay eyes on it now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

having used some fine emery cloth on the sides of the clips

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I got that one but had to ask about the inside. There shouldn't be a difference but apparently is.

You probably already have this...


Blank stamp Springfield Armory
AMP Stamp All Metal Products Co. (hard to read)
ACE 2 Stamp Aggressive Engineering Corporation (Military production)
AEC 2 Stamp Aggressive Engineering Corporation (Commercial production)
AEC 3 - Aggressive Engineering Corp (Commercial)
Anaheim, CA
AGE 1 - Aggressive Engineering Corp (Millitary contract)
Anaheim, CA
AGE 2 - Aggressive Engineering Corp (Millitary contract)
Anaheim, CA
AMP 1 - All Metal Products Wyandotte, MI
BLM - Barry L Miller Eng Inc Irvine, CA
BRW 1 Stamp Borg-Warner Spring Division
BRW 2 Stamp Borg-Warner Spring Division
BRW 3 Stamp Borg-Warner Spring Division
BRW 4 Stamp Borg-Warner Spring Division
BRW 5 Stamp Borg-Warner Spring Division
BRW 6 Stamp Borg-Warner Spring Division
BRW 7 Stamp Borg-Warner Spring Division
B-W 4 - Borg Warner (WW2) Spring Division,Bellwood, IL
C - Lerio Patent Cup Co. Mobile, AL
DAQ Stamp Dominion Arsenal (Quebec)
fF - Fedders Mfg Buffalo, NY
HA - Haerens Ammunitions Arsenal Copenhagen, Denmark
IMI Stamp Israeli Military Industries (Israel)
I S 1 Stamp International Silver Company
I S 2 Stamp International Silver Company
I S 3 Stamp International Silver Company
IS 4 - International Silver Meriden, CT
IS 5 - International Silver Meriden, CT
JMO Julios Maurer, Oberstein Germany
58 - Nationalist China
59 Nationalist China
68 JMO Stamp Julius Maurer (Germany)
69 JMO Stamp Julius Maurer (Germany)
70 JMO Stamp Julius Maurer (Germany)
71 JMO Stamp Julius Maurer (Germany)
72 JMO Stamp Julius Maurer (Germany)
74 JMO - Julius Maurer Oberstein, Germany
LP 1956 Stamp Italian (name unknown)
L&H 81 Italian or Danish
LP 1961 Stamp Italian (name unknown)
NW Stamp Northwest Metal Products
MAS Manufacture D' Armes St. Etienne France
MBZ Stamp (fat letters) Mourek & Ball, Zeist (Netherlands)
MBZ Stamp (small letters) Mourek & Ball, Zeist (Netherlands)
MBZ Stamp (regular letters) Mourek & Ball, Zeist (Netherlands)
MFT Mataal Fabriek Tilburg Netherlands
NW - Northwest Metal Seattle, WA
SF Serini France
S - Stanley Works (or SW) New Britain, CT
S A Stamp Springfield Armory
S A Stamp with dash underneath Springfield Armory
S A Stamp (oversized letters) Springfield Armory
TF&S Thomas French & Co. Ltd
W4 - R Wallace & Sons Wallingford, CT
W5 Stamp R. Wallace and Sons
W6 - R Wallace & Sons Wallingford, CT
WEP Stamp Wade Electric Products
WEP1 - Wade Electric Products Sturgis, MI
WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms New Haven, CT
WR Wallace & Sons Mfg.
5 Stamp Unknown - might be an S for Stanley Works but uncertain at this point
5mm hole. - Austrian

Thank you 'browningautorifle' for the chart on clip stampings. Haven't ever seen a listing that extensive. OK--it's time to come clean-First I called and talked with 'Rob' owner of AmmoGarand where I bought the clips a few years back that are marked AEC3. Very friendly and helpful guy. Rob advised that these clips are made in California by Aggressive Engineers the former US Military contractor that made clips for US Military use. He advised that he neither buys or sells Chinese "junk" in his business. In a email I sent to him asking about the origin of his clips I also explained the 'woes' I was having with my '42 Garand. He advised it sounds from his experience and what others have asked him about the same problem, it sounds like the eight rounds of '06 aren't being loaded properly. He advised that when he explained to them the proper loading method, the trouble went away.

This is where I come 'clean'---Rob at AmmoGarand asked how I was loading the clips and even though I was doing so in proper sequence, they weren't laying in there right and putting excessive pressure on the sides of the clip making the clip hard to seat. He also advised the same pressure made the first round hard to strip by the bolt. So with 'egg on my face' I admit to improper loading. In loading how I did it was starting with the first round in its proper place then alternating sides, but when getting to the 7th and 8th rounds, I was sliding the 7th in and then forcing the 8th horizontally into the clip putting pressure on it until it snapped in. I did check that all were seated. Rob at AG advised basically that was ok for the first 6 rds, but to try taking the 7th at a 45* angle and start it into place and do the same with the eighth, he also gave me other tips on loading the clips to ensure all is well. When doing sort of a twisting motion with all eight rounds in the clip, I could hear some slight snapping of the rounds to get seated. Something I wasn't doing. This may differ in what some of you do, but I was advised it works for him. I tried this method with three different clips in both Garands and each time the clips seated into place and the difficulty of the bolt stripping the first round was gone. A couple of times I had to wack the op rod handle slightly to get things going, but this was on new clips right out of the box. I hadn't shot my '55 Garand for a spell, so maybe there was something I was doing before when I wasn't having problems and when I loaded up clips for the '42 M1 I wasn't doing it. Anyway, the '42 M1 was seating the same clips full of ammo without difficulty that previously I was short on using a shop hammer to get them seated. Operator Error--my apologies! Thank you for all the help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

I admit to improper loading

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Doesn't matter, we all had to start. When I started, there was no one to show me and no internet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

I could hear some slight snapping of the rounds to get seated.

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I load my last one in from the side and it snaps into place. Top round on the right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Der Jagar

A couple of times I had to wack the op rod handle slightly to get things going

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That is NOT unusual. A slight assist of forward impetus...not unusual or a fault.

Yep, What he said. Have a friend who reloads 30-06 make you up 8 or more dummies with USGI or US commercial brass and practice loading. Enjoy, Steve

Thanks Steve762-I know just the guy--Me, Myself, and I!! I've been reloading since 1976 and now load for a variety of rifles and handguns, cast a lot of my bullets also. I've been reloading the '06 for around 15 yrs or so when I bought a 1917 Enfield. Since then, before buying my first M1, I added a '03 Springfield and 03A3 Springfield and have reloaded a pile of ammo for them. Several years ago I bought a RCBS X Die in 30/06 and really like it for the Garand.

I've done some practicing loading the enbloc's since I t/w the guy at AmmoGarand and things are going a lot smoother now with the '42 Garand. Haven't shot any yet, but have been loading the rifle, chambering the first round, then unloading it. I'm doing all of this in my back yard with the barrel pointing to my backstop and there is nothing but several hundred acre's of farmland and timber beyond that. I don't public range shoot, don't care for all the fuss and putting up with it all. Besides my back yard, I shoot at a family owned pasture with nothing but acre's of farmland and timber around it and at a abandoned quarry. Spoiled am I.

Your posts are very articulate. I have not had your problem with my 3 Garands. I've used Lake City and Greek (HXP) ammo and my reloads using that brass plus my supply of WWII era brass. The only problem I've had was with the H&R doubleing. I think that was mostly my fault since I've also had that trouble with some of my single trigger double-barreled shotguns. I fixed the H&R by replacing the trigger.

I wonder if you've thought of swapping some parts with your Springfield to try to see which part is the culprit. Also, I guess I'd try die marking (magic marker,etc.) loaded clips and inserting them in both rifles to see if unusual rub marks appear.

Sorry; it appears my post was late--you've already fixed your problem.