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Hi everyone,
New to the old Japanese rifles. I picked up a type 38 yesterday and have had some trouble figuring out the info on this one. Some of the markings are in pretty bad shape. Any info that you can share about my recent purchase is greatly appreciated! From what I can tell is that this rifle is from the Koishikawa Arsenal or Kokura. That’s all I can really decipher.
Attached are the pictures of the markings.
Again, I greatly appreciate your help!
Using D.O. McCollum's book as a reference, I think you have a Series 23 or late 26 from the Kokura arsenal. The notch in the safety was on of the changes in this series. That type was made from 1906 to 1940. If the bore is in good shape, you should have a good shooter. They are very accurate and a lot easier on the shoulder than the 7.7 Jap.
Cheers,
Steve
The rifle is a no series Koishikawa made near the end of the run for that rifle , 1930's . The bolt should not match as it is the wrong type . I do have the correct bolt for your rifle and may be up for a trade with some better photos of your bolt's markings . As it has the old style bore it may be a little hard to get to shoot well , a flat base bullet may be needed as a boattail may not work .
Awesome. I appreciate that info! Sadly the bore looks like it’s in bad shape. Seems to be pitted pretty badly. It’s also really dirty. Patch after patch is coming out black. Not sure if there’s just a bunch of junk in the there or if it actually is pitted beyond repair. Either way it’s a fun project.Quote:
Originally Posted by steveu
---------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------
What kind of bolt did my rifle come with?
You do understand that nothing steve said is correct . Your rifle came with the large bump safety . If your bolt numbers match each other that means it is the wrong bolt , not just the wrong safety . Besides the safety , the early bolts are just a little different , you can tell just by looking at them .
I'm guessing it doesn't shoot very well. Looks like a previous owner attempted a barrel change from the wrench marks on the Knox form and reciever. How does the chamber look? If its pitted too your likely wasting your time cleaning the bore.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloLima
Haven’t even attempted to shoot it. Not with the way it looked in the bore. Chamber looks good. Bought it just to have it though, restore the stock, getting rid of all the muck and grime. Most likely it’ll be a wall hanger vs something I’d shoot.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 PM ----------
This is my first Japanese WWII rifle, I essentially don’t know a thing about these. I’ve done a bit of research but haven’t come across anything that leads to having a solid idea of the series (now I know it’s a no series because they didn’t series these). I can’t say if something is wrong if I don’t really know anything about it. That’s why I’m here to learn! So thanks for your insight and knowledge on this subject matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by bob q
Type 38's do have series which started in 1933. These were numbered 0-999999. In that yours has a seven digit number yours was made prior to 1933. So that's the type bolt and safety you're looking for.
I wouldn't mess with the stock much as they have a unique finish that can't easily be duplicated.
Nambu World
Good info from bob q. Agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by bob q
The number is 99,999 not 999,999 .
If all else fails with the bore, you can "crest" it. Basically, a small amount of "Crest" toothpaste on your bore brush and run it through a few times. THIS DEFINITELY A LAST DITCH TECHNIQUE FOR THE BARREL. Per my FBI sniper instructor, you can seriously harm the barrel if you do it more than once or twice. I have done it to a couple of guns followed by a good copper remover and it will remove a lot of whatever is in there.
Might give that a go. Going to plug the barrel with a rubber stopper and leave some Hoppe’s #9 in there overnight. See if that helps at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer B
Good idea. I would try everything possible first and then if you reach a point where you believe it will only be a wall hangar, then try the "Crest" treatment. I used it on my Remington 700 work rifle and then on a friend's 1903 Springfield and they both came out great.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiloLima
What exactly is in tooth paste that would damage a barrel? If it's that abrasive or caustic it's a wonder people have any teeth left after a week or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer B
I think that FBI sniper instructor was blowing smoke up your asteroid.
Older toothpastes were gently abrasive, but more so than a brass brush or cloth patch. I don't think he was blowing smoke since my rifle was able to fire 5-round sub 1-inch groups after he treated it. Since he trained and certified all law enforcement snipers in the western United States at that time, I'm going to go with his knowledge and expertise on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
All toothpaste is abrasive, even modern ones. Some more so than others. It is in fact a very very mild polishing compound with flavoring added.
I still say that instructor was blowing smoke. Did you actually see him put crest toothpaste in your rifles bore straight from the tube?
And if toothpaste on a bore brush can seriously damage a barrel if done more than once or twice like your instructor says why did you have to then use a copper cleaner afterwards the couple times you used his trick? If TP is abrasive enough to damage steel barrels in short order surely it would remove copper fouling dont ya think?
That is one of the silliest things I have heard in a while . So many things in the story deify logic . No one man trained 10's of 1000's of shooters . Most departments have their own training program . Toothpasting bores would have nothing to do with shooting 100 yard sniper rifles . If tooth paste could wipe out steel , nobody would have any teeth left . I work with a lot of abrasives that would remove the enamel from your teeth in short order but will not hurt steel . There are so many good products made for rifle use that work there is no reason at all to use dental products . I also feel someone was having a good laugh at your expense .
Obviously you have no experience in certified law enforcement training in California. Special assignments with special skills such as SWAT or traffic collision investigation require certified training approved by the California Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training. The training conducted by most departments on their own is related to practicing and honing those skills learned during the state certified training course which was presented by the FBI at that time. Those training courses (such as sniper training) require a full course outline down to the 3rd level and including sniper tactics, shooting positions, scope use, mental preparation, etc., including care of the rifle. This component is very important since the rifle is responsible for 95% of the success of the shot. Abrasives will remove powder and fouling but won't reach into the rifling grooves to remove copper that's been squeezed into them. Copper fouling always requires chemical removal, thus the plethora of special bore cleaners containing ammonia or similar chemicals intended to dissolve and remove the copper. Police training in California is very heavily regulated and controlled due to the significant liability faced by law enforcement agencies in use of (deadly) force situations. Additionally, since many agencies can't afford their own SWAT teams and snipers, they use regional teams often provided by county sheriff's departments or multi-agency agreements, thus, you don't have "thousands" of snipers, more likely a few hundred. Sniper certification courses are usually offered only once or twice a year since there are so few of them and the turnover is very minimal. I hope this gives you some insight into a special world that very few people get to experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by bob q
You said the whole western USA .
---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------
Texas is in the western USA and it has over 2700 swat trained personal all by itself .
My apologies reference the misunderstanding. I never said "whole" and in California, everything east of Arizona/Nevada is considered central to eastern United States. Texas is a wonderful place and I have done some work with agencies there. They are excellent peace officers but have a different training and certification system there. Just as an additional piece of information, in addition to being the lead sniper, our instructor was also the master armorer for the FBI HDT unit. I tend to listen to people with that level of certification and expertise.
Sorry, I meant FBI HNT. Our agency had an HDT so I get them mixed up!
Singer, I'm sure your instructor is/was the best at what he did. Nobodys trying to take anything away from him or you but his toothpaste myth is just that, a myth.
In this modern day and age if there was ever a case of toothpaste damaging a rifle bore you can bet your bottom dollar it would be all over the internet but there's not one iota of evidence to support it.
Thanks to the both of you for your service.
No problem. Remember, it is the internet, not an expert, and the internet is often incorrect or lacking in knowledge. The great thing about this site and the main reason I use it is that I regularly run into questions that I cannot find on the internet, but is residing in the personal knowledge of someone who has experienced it and is willing to share that knowledge with those who ask. It is not a myth and there is evidence to support it, just not where you are looking or available to you. It was taught in a certified State of California law enforcement training course, utilized personally, and therefore shared for those who may wish to utilize it. You are free to discard it or use it as you please.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I will do a test . I have new barrel sections at my custom rifle shop . I will measure one for land and groove and then scrub it 100 times with crest tooth paste and measure it again . If you are correct I can save a bunch of money by replacing my metal cutting tools with tooth paste .
Sounds good. You may want to Google "will toothpaste hurt my rifle barrel." I went on the internet and found several articles/discussion threads about the topic. Some said it could definitely be harmful and some said it wouldn't be since the toothpaste of today isn't as abrasive as toothpaste in the past. The results of your test would be pretty cool to see!
In the past, tooth paste used to contain pumice. I don't think it does now. The pumice is used more for cleaning teeth today in dentists offices. Tooth pastes are now aimed at making teeth whiter with chemicals.
I used modern Crest white toothpaste on a 12 inch 30 cal barrel section . Cleaned the bore , measured the lands and grooves . Scrubbed the bore 37 times before I got tired and bored . It took 3 patches of Hoppes to get the crest residue out of the barrel . Measured again and there was no change at all in size , shine , or patch resistance down the bore . After cleaning barrels 10's of 1000's of times I have a pretty good feel for a bore . So I do not see how " more than once " would burn out a bore .
Sounds good, thanks for doing that. Perhaps Bruce is correct and they are much less abrasive today. Some of the articles I saw on internet said the same thing that Bruce mentioned. I leave it to the individual who may need to do it to determine what is best for their firearm and I would always recommend using a tried and proven product before using something experimental. Thank you for conducting that experiment!Quote:
Originally Posted by bob q
As far as I can tell by just looking it up , major US toothpaste has not used pumice since about the 1930's . So your instructor must have had some really old toothpaste . All of that aside there was never an abrasive used in toothpaste that would cut steel in a few uses or nobody would have any teeth left after a month , let alone 40 years of use .
Closed thread... :rolleyes:
Does anyone remember what the original poster's question was about? :confused:
Regards,
Doug