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166gr
steel jacket
lead core
7.8x28.2mm
I've loaded them in my .308, and they shot accurately at 100yds.
But I can only load them to a max length of 2.730.
That means I have to seat them all the way to the "hash marks" above the groove (or cannelure?).
Any idea of their origin?
Thanks
You say steel jacket? That's a copper wash then? They come to .307 with your measurement but steel jacket...?
yessir....lead core, steel jacketQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Was a challenge to section one yesterday
Certainly looks NATO.
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Gil Boyd
I just had a friend tell me the depth of the cannelure indicates they could have been used in full auto guns since it keeps the bullet from being pushed back.
Well, that certainly is one of the uses of a cannelure, that and FMJ would indicate... I have to say though, the jacket still looks like a standard copper/brass jacket by color. Even when expanded, the edge looks copper. Does it stick to a magnet?
yessir....sticks hard to a magnet, and I heated it with a butane torch. Lead center melted.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
So, steel...maybe European cast off bullets? Germany maybe? Used in the G1/G3?Quote:
Originally Posted by doc540
Finn 7.62.54r D166 heavy ball
Thanks, but I've yet to find Finnish ball in 166grQuote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
The outside measurement given comes up at .307 though. 7.62x54 has a much bigger outside diameter.
Don't suppose you can use a conventional micrometer to measure outside and confirm diameter could you? Too, there'll be someone alone shortly that already knows exactly what it's for...
Vintage Hunter is correct. It is Finnish ball ammo. They used barrels in their Mosin Nagant's of .308. and D166 is right.
Finally...
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
I've searched the net high and low and could not confirm 166 grains anywhere.
Not doubting you, just looking to confirm.
Can you provide a link showing Finnish D166 ball ammo at 166 grains?
thanks again
The Finns did have one model with a .3082" bore, the M28/30 iirc. All others, except the M39 were .309". All M39's have .310" bores.
The bullets you have are the wartime version and should have a diameter of 7.87mm or 7.88m(.310"),not 7.8mm(.307") as you noted in the op.. The modern Lapua D166 bullet is of a different profile, i.e. boat tail.
7.62x54r.net and mosinnagant.net both have photos of whole and sectioned wartime D166
bullets/cartridges for comparison on the ammunition identification pages in the Finnish section. Note the second "cannelure" on the Finn made bullets. It's not really a cannelure but rather an identification band found only on Finn made bullets. Winchester did a contract run of D166 ammo for Finnland but it lacks the band and also has the usual Winchester cannelure.
Neither site lists a weight for the D166 bullet.
That's why I was hoping for a micrometer measurement in inches...ie .308, .309, .310...Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
Understood. But at the same time you didnt really want to take my word on what they are did you ? Be honest....Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I'd gladly mail a few to any of you experts for examination and re-measurement.
Using two different calipers I just measured a dozen of them, and they're .308 at their widest points.
And using two different reloading scales they weigh 166 grains.
Very interesting discussion.
Thanks
If you wanted to send me one I'd be happy to throw it on our optical comparator at work.
This isn't the old light bulb and DRO type. This machine can export CAD files of the object being scanned. Can't get much more definitive than that!
thanks, message sentQuote:
Originally Posted by rcathey
Where would you read that in?Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
I'm no expert by any means. All info I posted comes from the two sites I mentioned plus a bit more from a discussion about D166 bullets on another board that stated wartime bullets were not the same as the current Lapua offering but that had the do with profiles only and made mo mention of the weight of wartime bullets.Quote:
Originally Posted by doc540
Both sites list diameter as being .310".
Do your bullets show any signs of being pulled?
---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------
That's the impression I got from posts 11 and 13...maybe I misunderstood. No worries.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Was not my intention.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
No problem Jim. I misunderstood and overreacted. Sorry bud.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I wouldn't know what signs to look for other than those on my Sierra's after I pull one and it shows marks from having been seated.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
They all look like the ones in the OP.
Thanks
Pull marks are usually long streaks in the bottom half of the bullet. Those look untouched.
I can't find marks/streaks on any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Of course, they could've been living in that plastic bag for 20+ years, too. Can't say what effect that might have had on them.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
If you dont mind telling I'd be interested to know when/where you got them, how many do you have and how were they packaged. According to what I've read that bullet hasn't been produced since about 1944 or 45, and then only by the Finns.
Im not trying to get you to sell any,I just find it highly unusual to come across them in what appears to be NOS condition and in component form. Pull downs I could understand. I'm not even sure that loaded D166 ammo exists in any quantity. I've never seen any, and I've looked.
A local FFL and close friend called and said he'd bought a cardboard box of misc reloading items at an estate sale.Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage hunter
He offered the whole box to me for a very fair price.
It was a little treasure chest.
These bullets were loose in a clear plastic bag.
I think the count was somewhere around 200 or so.
I've loaded and shot ten of them.
MOA at 100yds in my RAP .308.
Thanks for all the info gents.
Definitely make for a different looking .308 round compared to the usual Sierra/Hornday
Nice straight ogive, from the case mouth to the curve. Lots of barrel bearing surface.
The deep, rearwards cannelure is an interesting feature. Not unlike Mk7 .3.3 bullet. Of course, that cannelure was not intended for case-mouth crimping, but to carry a waterproofing sealant and the Mk 7 bullet was "stab-crimped" in place anyway.
It may also have that big cannelure in that location for a different reason. If it is "rolled" into the jacket to sufficient depth, the jacket will form a "constriction" inside the bullet. Could this be as a form of "extra" core retention, intended to reduce core separation after initial impact. Standard 7.62 NATO projectiles start to upset and tumble when they strike anything much harder than air and often rupture at the "knurled', rolled cannelure if upset enough.
Seems the closest we've come to identifying these is the Finnish 7.62x53R
Just found THIS!
"Because the Finnish Army considered the S-1 bullet too inaccurate for rifles and inappropriate for machine-gun use, a new boat-tailed service bullet with a crimping groove was developed in 1932-1934. The resulting design, known as D-166, was introduced in 1936. This bullet had gilding metal jacket just like the D-46 and D-47 but weighed 13 grams (200 grains), was 33.8mm long and, for a certain reason, had somewhat increased diameter (7.87mm). Because of the bullet weight the powder charge was dropped to 2.85-2.95 grams and burning rate was slightly decreased as well. Although the D-166 was more material consuming bullet to manufacture than the S-1 it became more economical cartridge to make as copper and lead were much less valuable than powder at that time. Therefore production of the S-1 bullets was halted in 1939 and the D-166 became the standard cartridge of the Finnish Army. The main manufacturer was VPT but also Sako and temporarily loading shops established in 1940 (Patruunalataamo 41, 42, 43 and 51) loaded D-166 cartridges. VPT started production in 1936 which halted in mid 1940 during the Interim Peace. A year later, just before the Continuation War, the D-166 went back production which lasted until early 1944. This was because a more economical 10.8 gram (167 grain) spitzer bullet with conical base cavity, the S-283, was introduced in late 1943. Externally this new bullet looked like a D-166 cut just in front of the boat tail for which reason it was fitted with a knurled ring to distinguish it from the heavier D-166. The S-283 was replaced by gilding-metal-clad steel jacketed version known as S-284 in June 1944. The charge VPT used for both bullets was 3.15 grams of tubular nitrocellulose powder. At some point in late 1944 or early 1945 the D-166 was reintroduced once again."
They are S-284's.
The Finn TKIV sniper is built around the 7.62 x 53R round. This is essentially a very refined version of the venerable Russian round. The trick is that the barrels were essentially "western" 7.62mm bore and groove; hence the .308" (ish) bullets, including, apparently some SMK or Lapua match-bullet type. The trick is that about the only compromise in this conversion was to use chamber and throat dimensions that would allow the use of "standard ball" ammo in "emergency". Such a concept od "exclusive" ammo can also be found with the Russian SVD and its special ammo; the 7N1, which is topped with a 152 grain FMJBT projectile and which is made on dedicated production lines and one plant: Factory 188, also known as Novosibirsk Low Voltage Equipment Plant .
The last word in Mosin Nagant variants. With many of the receivers being culled from "liberated" Russian rifles, the guts of many of these rifle can be over a hundred years old. Makes an L42A1 look positively sprightly.
Apparently, the TKIV series have been phased out in favour of a nice, green Sako of more "Mauser-sh" heritage.
Sorry, That should be: "7N14" cartridge as the current Russian "special" round.
There is a "7N1" but it was introduced in the sixties with the introduction of the SVD and superseded by the 7N14 in 1999.
BOTH were successful attempts to squeeze a significant "accuracy" improvement out of the trusty old 7.62 x 54R.
I'm not a total "ammo guy", but, back in the 1950's, when Olympic shooting was a bit more "butch" than 10metre indoor air-rifle events, the Soviets got quite a bit of attention with impressive scores delivered by "racing" versions of the Mosin Nagant, firing the original cartridge, probably from carefully selected batches.
Then there's the Russian "wildcat" 6.5 x54R, also used briefly as a Biathlon rifle.
Then, they cooked up a "wildcat" based on the 7.62 x 39. This 5.6 x 39 was first used in the "Running Deer" events and became quite popular in Russia end Finland as a "medium-game' cartridge. It is ballistically similar to the .222 Remington and shares a reputation for consistent accuracy. This was the cartridge that eventually "went West" in bench-rest circles as the .220 Russian and then became the basis of the .22 PPC, 6mm PPC and 6.5 Grendel, etc...
The Russians and the East Germans built some slick competition rifles in 5.6 x 39 as "gamesmanship" took off with a vengeance. The SSG 82 is one East German version. Russian hunting rifles in this calbre include the TOZ-84-20/5,6 and thr MTs-127