Smle grenade cup- markings survey

Hello, since I couldn't find any information with my previous post about specifically Australian smle grenade cups, I figured it might be better to get a survey of known maker's marks and work from there. So if anyone has grenade cups, I would appreciate if you could reply with any marks found on them and their location. Sorry if this is the incorrect way of going about this (I'm new), and thank you to anyone that submits information. From what I can tell cups and adaptors were manufactured separately in many cases so check for markings on both. I may put together a spread or reference sheet at some point. Also I would like to add, I am not very knowledgeable on the subject but am eager to learn, so any resources you know of would be helpful.

Mine :

RFI Cup, S&B Mounting




Attachment 106729


Attachment 106730

Or :

Attachment 106731

Attachment 106732

Attachment 106733

Thought these might be of interest, though not cup dischargers. The one in the poorest condition is also the rarest. I have never seen one before exactly the same. It is fabricated from two separate pieces of steel riveted together. I was led to believe by a French collector that it is an early example of the 'launcher' for the No23 Mk1, 2, & 3 grenades. The chap who found it lives in Bernafay Wood on the Somme, & he found it in the wood, which his family own.

Photo's taken in the kitchen, hence the pack of hot cross buns in the background!:lol:

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Thought these might be of interest, though not cup dischargers. The one in the poorest condition is also the rarest. I have never seen one before exactly the same. It is fabricated from two separate pieces of steel riveted together. I was led to believe by a French collector that it is an early example of the 'launcher' for the No23 Mk1, 2, & 3 grenades. The chap who found it lives in Bernafay Wood on the Somme, & he found it in the wood, which his family own.

Photo's taken in the kitchen, hence the pack of hot cross buns in the background!:lol:

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Very cool, I've never really looked into that type. Do you know any good books for it besides ian skennerton's the Lee Enfield?

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Also I think I'll also include dates in the spread sheet, may as well.

There are a few books that contain a little information, but none that I am aware of that contain a lot! There's bound to be something in The LES, but I doubt there'll be the comprehensive info that you're seeking. Both of the books shown in the photo's contain a little info on launchers of various types, but no detail on who the manufacturers were, save for Darryl Lynn's book does say that two of the UK manufacturers of the cup discharger during WW2 were Adams Brothers, & Burnley & Lightfoot Refrigeration. The emphasis is of course more on the grenades than the means of projection. Much the same to be said about a Text Book of Small Arms 1929, I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

There are a few books that contain a little information, but none that I am aware of that contain a lot! There's bound to be something in The LES, but I doubt there'll be the comprehensive info that you're seeking. Both of the books shown in the photo's contain a little info on launchers of various types, but no detail on who the manufacturers were, save for Darryl Lynn's book does say that two of the UK manufacturers of the cup discharger during WW2 were Adams Brothers, & Burnley & Lightfoot Refrigeration. The emphasis is of course more on the grenades than the means of projection. Much the same to be said about a Text Book of Small Arms 1929, I'm afraid.

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Its unfortunate that there is no complete set of information on them any where. Ian skennerton's book has a number of the contractors, but he doesn't have what markings they used. I'll have to read through that section of the book again to see if there is any useful information in regards to this.

Some details on the 'Launcher'

The bracket was fitted to the end of a Short Magazine Lee Enfield rifle and held a No23 Grenade which was fitted with a rod screwed into the base plate.
The No 3 Grenade Launcher was adopted to enable the launching of a No 23, or a similar bomb from a Lee Enfield Rifle, it’s base had a threaded hole into which a rod could be screwed, this was fed down the barrel of the gun after the launching bracket had been mounted. The former was then fired using a blank cartridge.

No5 Grenades had no hole in the base plate, but a No 23 base would fit a No 5 Grenade.
So it follows that many No 5 units can be found with No 23 bases.
The launchers intention was to hold the safety lever in place, after the pin had been removed, until the unit was fired.

Details on using the 'Cup-Launcher'

Alright, I really messed up some of the nomenclature on this post and might have to restart it but here is what I am looking for;
Manufacturer marks on cups
Date on cup?
Any other marks on cups
Manufacturer marks on bases
Dates on bases
Any other marks on bases
From the research I have done these are all the manufacturer marks I am aware of;
RFI
S&B
SA
Bourn Brook
Farmers
HL-(possible refurb or other marks, as it was seen on an S&B base)
SIR
Now these are the contractors I could find for the cups in reading material;
Adams Bros. & Burnley-wwii
Lightfoot refrigeration-wwii
Lines Bros ltd-unknown
Metro Gas Co. (Australia)-unknown
National projectile factory-wwi
Components Ltd-wwi
S&B-wwi
Bowden wire Ltd-wwi
W.Ward & co Ltd-wwi
There are also 4 more WWI contractors not listed, and possible others for wwii, including some of the WWI contractors. It is also possible some of those manufacturer only made components, it's all a little iffy.
Also do y'all think I should restart the thread so it's more clear what info I want and what I know?

Bournbrook and components Ltd are the same.

S&B MM on the base and a 6 or 9 is the only mark on the cup of mine.

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Originally Posted by Lithy

S&B MM on the base and a 6 or 9 is the only mark on the cup of mine.

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Any chance it's ".W.W" not "MM" I have seen some marked
"H.W.W
& Co Ltd"
In addition to being marked "S&B"
I am beggining to suspect S&B might not necessarily be a manufacturer mark, as I have seen it along side a number of other possible manufacturer marks to include HL, M&C, H.W.W & Co ltd. I am curious what others think though.

I don't know a lot about the discharger cups but some years ago, I managed to have a look at a fair few, both in the UK & in France, & most of them had S&B marked adapters, with a variety of different markings (& sometimes very little) on the actual cup itself. I wonder if S&B were a/the major contractors for this component.............or as you suggest, S&B is not a manufacturer's mark after all.

As an aside, do you know how late on RFI made the cups? Did they continue to make them after the end of WW2? Just curious.....

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

I don't know a lot about the discharger cups but some years ago, I managed to have a look at a fair few, both in the UK & in France, & most of them had S&B marked adapters, with a variety of different markings (& sometimes very little) on the actual cup itself. I wonder if S&B were a/the major contractors for this component.............or as you suggest, S&B is not a manufacturer's mark after all.

As an aside, do you know how late on RFI made the cups? Did they continue to make them after the end of WW2? Just curious.....

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No clue how long RFI made them, dates on cups seem to be rare. Only date I've ever seen on any (from pictures) is 1942. I've seen it twice on bases and once on a cup marked HL. I suspect RFI may have also done refurbs, you can see a faint "SA" over a number, along side RFI on the first pictures on this thread. If nothing else the RFI looks like it was applied after the "SA" based on wear alone. My guess is they stopped in the 1940s, because (I believe) England declared its obsolete in 1946/1947, and probably sent all it's remaining dischargers to India and australia. That's all speculation though.

---------- Post added at 08:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 PM ----------

Also, does anyone have any ideas on how I should format the spreadsheet, I am currently doing
cup mfr,cup misc, cup date, base mfr, base misc, base date,
I put S&B as the mfr, and any other marks under misc but maybe I should switch them, open to any input as I've never really done this before.

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Originally Posted by lithgow1918

England declared its obsolete in 1946/1947, and probably sent all it's remaining dischargers to India and Australia

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An extract from a post by Peter laidler

'We' were still producing GF rifles ……………….


Thanks to former Armourer ‘Robbie’ Robertson who was able to shed light on this. Robbie also commented that ‘………….. we did about 250 of the rifles in 1967 or so but I don’t ever remember seeing any of the actual cups since Korea in the early 50’s. I don’t think we had any!’
[/I]

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

An extract from a post by Peter laidler

'We' were still producing GF rifles ……………….


Thanks to former Armourer ‘Robbie’ Robertson who was able to shed light on this. Robbie also commented that ‘………….. we did about 250 of the rifles in 1967 or so but I don’t ever remember seeing any of the actual cups since Korea in the early 50’s. I don’t think we had any!’
[/I]

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Huh, maybe they retained some, or my source is wrong. I guess it's also possible they were making line throwing rifles, although I find that possiblity unlikely. It's also possible they were just drawn out of front line service in 1947. Looks like they must have kept some though.

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Originally Posted by lithgow1918

Huh, maybe they retained some, or my source is wrong. I guess it's also possible they were making line throwing rifles, although I find that possiblity unlikely. It's also possible they were just drawn out of front line service in 1947. Looks like they must have kept some though.

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As Peter was the most senior Armourer in the UK, and was actually involved with GF rifles, I would suggest that he had a reasonable idea of what was happening.

One of his posts from December 2007

There’s been a bit of discussion, off forum, between a few forum-ers about grenade launching and the part it plays in the virtual destruction of rifles. Don’t forget that there are basically two sorts of ‘standardised’ grenade launchers. The spigot launchers for the Energa type grenades and the cup dischargers for the old hand grenades.
But first, CUP DISCHARGERS
There are a few myths about these things and at Warminster and Shrivenham, some of the old research papers exist from the Woolwich and Enfield trials. But first things first. I am going to mention this in everyday non-technical language for obvious reasons and it stands to reason that a technical interpretation might be flawed to a hopefully small extent but ….. The claws on the old cup discharger simply hold it in place and don’t take any of the recoiling load. This might be contrary to your beliefs, but it’s true. It simply holds the cup onto the nose cap.
To cater for a forthcoming problem that I’ll mention later, Armourers would instruct the bombardiers (the grenade launching specialists) how to fit the cup correctly and properly. Now, look into the cup discharger and you’ll see, buried deep into the bowels of the conical end, a large screwdriver slot astride a hole that mates up with the bore. This screwdriver slot is to unscrew the NOZZLE and if the drawings are correct, it’s a ½” BSP thread. These nozzles were a readily replacement part as they quickly wore out should you ever need to make another. The screwdriver slot was made so as to be compatible with the ‘BIT, screwdrivers, stock bolt’. And effectively prevented the normal squaddie interfering with it. Yours will inevitably be jammed solid with years of carbon fouling if you’re UN-lucky or just old grease if you’re lucky. So loosen it off and get it out. If you have to make a new one, make a few and sell them on, cheap, to fellow forum-ers
This is what the Armourers instructions to the bombardiers was. Screw the cup to the nose cap in the usual way. NOT with a xxxxing great strap wrench or huge pipe spanner …, please! THEN get the Armourer with his stockbolt screwdriver to screw the nozzle down until it is a tight fit ONTO the muzzle of the rifle. That way, it’s effectively pulling the cup away from the fore-end, almost acting as a lock nut and it’s a gas check too. It’s simple isn’t it, but not understood after having been lost in the mists of time!
This is because the recoil takes place on the rear of the cup. If the nozzle isn’t hard down onto the muzzle then the nose cap will recoil violently onto the fore-end, fore-end recoils violently down and into the rear of the body. In a short space of time the fore-end will be loose and, …. well, in short, knackered. HOWEVER, if the cup recoils against the BARREL, well, that’s what barrels do anyway!
But there’s more. Armourers notes, say that for grenade launching rifles, the butt MUST fit right up into and abut against the inside face of tapered butt socket ….. ‘while remaining a tight fit inside the socket……’. But not only that. There MUST be a gap of about 2mm (go on then, the width of a hacksaw blade) between the rear edge of the socket and the wood of the butt to the depth of the step. This is important for ALL rifles because this small measure prevents the butt socket slicing a sliver of wood away from the edge. You’ve got another patch to do if it does! There, does that explain why you have a grease filled slot between the front of the butt and the rear of the butt socket. It shows that a) its correctly fitted and b) the Armourer will have done his job. But you’d expect that from a REME Armourer anyway.

And how does he know this? An Engineering Graduate, Capt. Peter Laidler was the Senior Armourer in the British Army since serving his apprenticeship between January1963 and 66. More recently he was the senior technical Officer at the Small Arms School at Warminster. And oversaw the introduction of the current L59 series of DP rifle.

That's interesting, it appears I was wrong. They must have retained them far longer than I would have thought. Thanks for the info.

We probably retained a modest number against the (unlikely but not impossible) future need for some.......

The UK MoD used to have extensive storage facilities, but with progressive sell-offs since WW2 the government now has to pay for much of its storage space, hence the greater tendency to 'get rid', these days.

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Originally Posted by lithgow1918

Any chance it's ".W.W" not "MM" I have seen some marked
"H.W.W
& Co Ltd"
In addition to being marked "S&B"
I am beggining to suspect S&B might not necessarily be a manufacturer mark, as I have seen it along side a number of other possible manufacturer marks to include HL, M&C, H.W.W & Co ltd. I am curious what others think though.

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Very clearly struck MM.

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Originally Posted by Lithy

Very clearly struck MM.

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Thanks, just wanted to be sure, that's a new mark to me.

Here’s a WWI cup from my collection. S&B on both components with an additional M&S/L on the clamp. Not sure what the 1161 number is all about but it looks like it was probably struck with the S&B.

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Originally Posted by hatrick

Here’s a WWI cup from my collection. S&B on both components with an additional M&S/L on the clamp. Not sure what the 1161 number is all about but it looks like it was probably struck with the S&B.

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Interesting, first S&B cup in the survey(only have 11 so far most from pictures online), I am really beggining to suspect it's not a manufacturer mark, anyone else have any insight into this?

Really enjoyed the insight from this post, especially the instructions on the correct mounting. Was anyone able to identify markings for Australian produced Metro Gas Co cups? I have seen a few cups for sale and most are clearly identified and not metro. Occasionally there is an “unknown”. Is there any thoughts that maybe metro has didn’t mark their grenade cups? I would really like to add an Aussie version to my collection. Thanks in advance fir any updates.

No news that I'm aware of. Found and bought a grenade cup and clamp both marked with an "M", but I doubt it's Metro gas co. Heard somewhere that the single letter marks were a WWII thing. It also has the S&B mark which really leads me to believe they were not a manufacturer, and that the marking has some other significance.

Thanks Lithgow. I appreciate the work. If I learn any more I’ll update the thread and in the meantime I am on the hunt for a grenade cup!

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Originally Posted by Nagloc68

Thanks Lithgow. I appreciate the work. If I learn any more I’ll update the thread and in the meantime I am on the hunt for a grenade cup!

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https://www.gunboards.com/threads/australian-smle-grenade-cups.1163113/#post-10406551

Also started this thread elsewhere, don't think anything came of it though.

Since these cups are fairly available here in the U.S., I'll be interested to see what the results of this query are, especially since there seems to be a hole in the markings database for them. But I'm mostly interested in whether any of the ones currently on the market aren't Indian.

I have one I suspect isn't indian. No rfi markings or much black paint (there may be a few specs, I don't remember well). It is also a matching cup and base for what that's worth. Paid a premium for those reasons, although I suppose it could just have a light sprinkling of "inidaness" given the specs of black paint.