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Can anyone tell me which came first; Rigby Commercial scopes, or the Periscopic Prism scope, as fitted to the SMLE sniper rifles?
Was it the case that Rigby was marketing a German scope under their own name, which PPCo copied, or did Rigby sell PPCo manufactured scopes post WW1, marked as a Rigby product?
It is a minefield to be too dogmatic about WW1 stuff, especially the early items, but my impression is that the Rigby marked scopes are usually essentially the Fuess Helios 3 type, or at least, nearer to the original Helios 3 than the production PPCo scopes. ('Transitional' models are sometimes encountered). I have therefore assumed that these Rigby marked scopes are early. I suspect some of them were fitted to the small number of SMLE's that were fielded with one of Rigby's own mount systems fiitted. The only surviving rifle of this type in the world that I know of is owned by a regular on this forum. I suspect Rigby fielded two (or maybe more?) mount systems though, as I have a couple of military scopes engraved to them which appear to be unadulterated, one being an Aldis & the other an ER Watts, & their mounts are identical but totally different to those on the rifle previously mentioned. I agree though, it can be very difficult deciding on these as so many were reutilised after the war & the companies involved were often H&H, Rigby, Purdey & so on, who were also involved in the WW1 contracts.
Feuss as a smaller maker was perhaps open to the idea of selling unbranded scopes to Rigby or whoever. With far fewer scopes available in the UK and a market relatively new to them and therefore not well informed, I wouldn't be surprised if Rigby just took whatever seemed adequate and was cheapest.
There is no mention of PPCo. in the 1921 "Dictionary of British Scientific Instruments", the publication of the British Optical Instrument Manufacturer's Association, nor of any company at 23 Prince of Wales Crescent, Kentish Town.
And if it's any indication, in the list of products of their members in that Directory, there is not a single mention of any kind of telescopic sight except a single mention of naval gun sights!
Yes, we hear nothing of PPCo after WW1, or at least, I haven't. They were taken over by the government before the end of the war, so they were presumably the government's to do with what they wished, once hostilities were over, & perhaps they did!
Significantly, when more Model 1918 scopes were required for the Irish Republic's contract for No3 (T)'s, they were ostensibly made by BSA, (at least they bear the BSA logo).
Owning a Rigby engraved scope in PPCo style but without PPCo designation on the tube which bears the address of Rigby dating prior to the PPCo military contract, I assume Rigby used German made scopes prior to switching over to PPCo scopes.
Yes, I assume so too, certainly the Fuess Helios 3, which also eventually morphed into the PPCo scope, with a little tweaking here & there.
Promo, did the Rigby scope come as standard with the two mounting "pegs" on the side of the tube, or were they only on scopes for the SMLE?Quote:
Originally Posted by Promo
---------- Post added at 03:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------
Roger, what would be the approximate UK value for a Rigby marked scoe of this pattern in very good condition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
A few Rigby photos from an old drive. If anyone "owns" any of these and objects, PM me and will remove.
All of mine have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by harry mac
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The above are some scopes that I believe may be early WW1 era issue scopes. What they show is that the true situation of production, mounting & issue was probably more complex than we are aware of today. This situation has not been helped by the lack of surviving original documentation.
Amongst them is an Aldis of early production (lacking its range drum at present, but that is in hand!) with the 'other pattern' of Rigby mounts.
A 'Fuess/PPCo Transitional' scope (no manufacturere's mark or name) wearing Purdey mounts, generally associated with the mounting of Aldis scopes.
A Rigby marked Fuess pattern (no maker's id). No mount locating 'studs' on this particular example.
A Fuess/PPCo Transitional scope marked up to H&H & bearing the remains of what I suspect are very early issue H&H rings.
A Fuess style scope marked up to George Gibbs. The mounts have been filed off leaving just rings around the tube, but the spacing would be consistent with Rigby mounts as on the Aldis. The rings are too far apart for Purdey or H&H two piece mounts. The scope is marginally longer than a 'standard' Fuess/PPCo.
I also have a 'Fuess Helios 3' marked scope that came to me wearing a GR property tag somewhere around.
Harry mac, I've adressed your question on values by pm.
Amazing selection of scopes in post 8 Surpmil!
No, the amazing collection is yours Roger; mine is mostly photos now!
The engine-turned drum on that Gibbs "PPCo." is interesting. Same drum seen once on an Aldis No2 or 3. IRRC it was marked up to 6 or 8 hundred yards so was not likely a post-war addition.
I'm just cleaning a little Gibbs "rook rifle" scope at the moment with the typical hook & peg attachments on the rings, which I believe Alex. Martin and Alex. Henry also used. Have also photos of an Aldis No4 set up by Gibbs with similar mounts. Hard to say who was the originator of it, but the see through rings on the Rigby scopes are unique for British scope mounts of the time perhaps? That might suggest the rings were made up for them in Germany?
This Gibbs scope is clearly of continental origin from the zamak/pot metal erector cell, and various other details. Marked "Bristol & London" so that must date it somewhat?