"Weapons Expert" surprised by 30 carbine performance

Was posted here years ago. In an old episode of History Channel's "Weaponology" series, they discuss the weapons of the French Foreign Legion through the years. At about minute 39:00 the "weapons expert" talks about the carbine being being popular with the Legion even though it was essentially a pistol round. He then shoots a 12x12" clay block with a 30-06 and gets the expected big hole. He then shoots another 12x12" clay block with the M1 carbine and the block is blown apart! He was gobsmacked and totally at a loss. To my dad and his brothers who all fought in the Pacific in WW 2, this would not have been a surprised. It excelled at close up and personal.

Weaponology - Season 2 Epiosde 11 - French Foreign Legion - YouTube

Interesting!

the ones labeled weapons EXPERT, are normally more incompetent about weapons then say Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi....

meaning, they'll most likely try to tell you the .30 luger pistol used .30-06, BECAUSE ITS A 30 caliber

Besides growing up hearing my dad's and uncles' respect for the M1 Carbines they used in the Pacific in WW2, I really gained respect for it in about 1988. I used one to nail a 175 lb+ Black Tail deer buck, brush hunting on my sister's property. It was a single broadside heart/lung shot at 97 long paces using an R-P 110 grn JSP. It jumped about a couple times about 20, then dropped dead. The exit wound took out a couple ribs and I could almost get my thumb and four fingers in it.

I carried an M1 Carbine as a trunk weapon for much of my LEO career, alternating with a Mini-14 at times. I never felt under-gunned.

I had about 25 of them over time including all the prime contractors except IP. They had all the desirable features now scarce and they were just what was available on the pawn shop racks then. I used to load for mine, still could with a cast gas check bullet of about 120gr. It's supposed to be pointed but my top punch makes it RN and it feeds perfectly. Everyone on hand would notice and mention the authority it hit the 200 yd gong with, sounded every bit like the 30-30 Winchester...no shortage of far end smack.

The Carbine action starts at 39 minutes. I know it's mentioned, but I overlooked it prior in the original message.

whoever done that video, was uhm smoking to much at the local opium den

We get hung up on "Magnumitus" now days. If you look at where is was successful: the Pacific, Europe inside villages and towns, and Viet Nam, they were all under 200 yards. Where it wasn't as successful: Europe out in the country,Korea when used as a rifle at 300 yards, or worse full auto by untrained troops at 300 yards. That is because it was used outside of the envelop it was designed for: A Personal Defense Weapon for 150 yards or less. At 1990 fps with 967 ft lbs ME at muzzle and at 100 yards 1560 fps and over 600 ft lbs (more than a 125 grain JHP has 357 at the muzzle!)

Audie Murphy and Ola Mise used them to earn their MOH. Even Stormin Norman Schwarzkopf prefered an M2 with a para stock when he was on the line in Vietnam. My dad and his brothers used them in the PTO in WW2 and said it never failed them (and they did come back!)

The 30 Carbine PDW round compared to HK 4.6x30 and FNs 5.7x28 PDW cartridges. The Carbine round offers more than twice the ME at the muzzle, and more at 100 yards IIRC.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../VrFiwyy-1.jpg

One of my favorite carbine pics. An Alaska hunter who used an M1 to kill Kodiak bears. I seem to remember that he was some kind of government hunter. Undoubtedly head shots! Besides being an excellent shot, the guy obviously has big brass balls, too!

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../eTDDw04-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by tenOC

The Carbine action starts at 39 minutes. I know it's mentioned, but I overlooked it prior in the original message.

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Thanks, there was no way I was going to endure that moronic narration long enough to find out where it was otherwise!

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Thanks, there was no way I was going to endure that moronic narration long enough to find out where it was otherwise!

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The programs were an hour long. Unfortunately, most of the time they should have been half hour, and they babble to fill the time between commercials! You do have to check facts though, even on the History Channel. The had one about the Spanish American war. They talked about troops going to the Philippines via the Panama canal! Problem is, the War was in 1898, and the canal was not finished until 1914! I suspect that the troops crossed the isthmus on the trans Panama railway, instead.

Bullet speed and ME is what you load or what the load is. Easy to compare different cartridges if the bullet type/shape/weight, propellent, velocity, barrel length, etc are all the same. If not, comparison is meaningless.

Moved

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Bullet speed and ME is what you load or what the load is. Easy to compare different cartridges if the bullet type/shape/weight, propellent, velocity, barrel length, etc are all the same. If not, comparison is meaningless.

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For a straight comparison of cartridge only yes, but if comparing say, two service pistols using service ammo you have a set value for all of that. For example the M1911 and M9 using service ammo have ME within 5ft/lbs of each other at the muzzle.

:thup:I don't know. That .30 carbine is good for coyotes and what not. Never looked at is as a man killer right or wrong. But heck, what do I know of man killin'? They are a hoot to shoot though. About the easiest "rifle" caliber to reload for too. I'm a fan.

Well, my dad in his brothers fought with M1 Carbines in the Pacific in WW2. They would dispute anyone saying it was not good at its job! I whacked a large Black Tail Deer at 100 yards with one shot from a carbine. It died right there.

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Originally Posted by WillSarchet

For a straight comparison of cartridge only yes, but if comparing say, two service pistols using service ammo you have a set value for all of that. For example the M1911 and M9 using service ammo have ME within 5ft/lbs of each other at the muzzle.

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You are comparing ME energy only in this example under a very restricted set of conditions,nothing else. As soon as anything changes, such as a different lot number service issue ammo, or different service pistols of the same type, make, etc, the results change. This is the subject of many arguments as it always has to do what the individual believes to be the truth.

Hypotheticals aside, combatants killed by 30 Carbine in 3 wars were just s dead as those killed by 30-06, 45 ACP, or 9mm. It was not effective when employed outside its design envelop as a PDW or close in and personal weapon.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

Hypotheticals aside, combatants killed by 30 Carbine in 3 wars were just s dead as those killed by 30-06, 45 ACP, or 9mm. It was not effective when employed outside its design envelop as a PDW or close in and personal weapon.

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When haters say it's a weak round I always respond that I'll inform the tens of thousands of wartime dead that it's a weak round.

My little experience with one was very good. Light, accurate, easy to handle, friendly rifle. Wish I'd managed to spirit it away.

It wouldn't have lasted this long in combat if it wan't good.

You said it , sir. ME and MV be damned, if it works it works.

Its all about shot placement...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../eTDDw04-1.jpg

:bow:Hunting bears with a .30 Carbine is delightfully insane.

In the early 90's I worked with Jean Luc, a Frenchman who served in the FFL. One day he had a heated argument with a Vietnamese customer. I went home as they were bickering, but when I came into work the next day, Jean Luc had a vintage carbine leaned against his desk. Said he carried one the whole time he was in Algeria.

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Originally Posted by Retirednsmilin308

One day he had a heated argument with a Vietnamese customer.

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I wonder what the gist of that was/could have been? Considering the Vietnamese has tons of carbines too and must have used them as long as anyone else...

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Originally Posted by Retirednsmilin308

a Frenchman who served in the FFL. Said he carried one the whole time he was in Algeria.

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Would that have been an M1A1? I think so...from what I can gather.

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Originally Posted by Retirednsmilin308

In the early 90's I worked with Jean Luc, a Frenchman who served in the FFL. One day he had a heated argument with a Vietnamese customer. I went home as they were bickering, but when I came into work the next day, Jean Luc had a vintage carbine leaned against his desk. Said he carried one the whole time he was in Algeria.

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I thought you were going to say he fought in "Indochina" ;)

It was "Indochina" until 1954 when the French were defeated at Dien Ben Phu... and that was the beginning of our foolishness there - all those years ago. Anyone that ever under- estimated the Vietnamese as an opponent learned the hard way just how tenacious and ferocious they can be in a conflict situation. For hundreds of years as they were conquered over and over again - the "conquerors" soon regretted ever tangling with them.... It's no accident that all their cultural heroes were warriors going back hundreds of years...

Viet Bac - north Vietnam, Viet Nam - south country... I actually had some schooling in the history and culture of that part of the world before I was sent there in 1971,,, My dad did two tours there...

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Originally Posted by lemaymiami

It was "Indochina" until 1954 when the French were defeated at Dien Ben Phu... and that was the beginning of our foolishness there - all those years ago. Anyone that ever under- estimated the Vietnamese as an opponent learned the hard way just how tenacious and ferocious they can be in a conflict situation. For hundreds of years as they were conquered over and over again - the "conquerors" soon regretted ever tangling with them.... It's no accident that all their cultural heroes were warriors going back hundreds of years...

Viet Bac - north Vietnam, Viet Nam - south country... I actually had some schooling in the history and culture of that part of the world before I was sent there in 1971,,, My dad did two tours there...

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IIRC they were effectively and traditionally two states until the French forced them into one. The South in fact had a legitimate claim to self-determination, however as a society it was a moral failure and so couldn't resist a totalitarian aggressor. Hopefully the lesson isn't lost on the rest of us.

And here we were talking about carbines...

The little diminutive .30 cal carbine is a bear killer for sure. Many years ago I met with and talked to a former Airforce AP who had been stationed in Greenland. He said that the carbine is what they were issued and when something happened to a plane or chopper and it went down that they had to go out and rescue those on board. They were always in a race with Polar bears to get there first. Many a bear met its end due to the little carbines. But only if other lives or their own were endanger.

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Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill

The little diminutive .30 cal carbine is a bear killer for sure.

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Kind of surprising but then if that's what they had, I guess. I know they've been brought down with .22 rimfire but again, not my first choice. I guess they were using ball at the time too, just showing shot placement being everything...

Years ago I was watching a program on Polar Bears. One of the guys in the film was an Eskimo. He ventured out from his hut without a firearm and was caught by a full grown Polar Bear. As the bear was trying to get hold of the guy's head he remembered a thing that his grandfather had told him, specifically, a bear would not bite anything that was wider than his open mouth. As his grandfather had told him, he raised his forearm which was wider than the bear's open mouth and put it in front of his face, elbow down fist up. The bear was apparently confused by this and was turning his head side to side trying to fit this object into his mouth. While the bear was distracted, he kicked it with his leg. The bear jumped back and the Eskimo bolted for his cabin door. He closed the episode by saying that he had to get outside with his "Big Gun", a 30-30.

Anyone who's ever dressed a deer killed with a 30-30 knows the reality of what it can do. The carbine shot into the skull of a bear at close range kills it. Several well placed shots would definitely kill it. All 15 in the wrong places wouldn't kill it.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

a 30-30

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Yep, I've done lots of that.

The carbines I always noticed hit the steel plates with serious wallop at 200 yds. Every bit as hard as other .30 cal bullets.

Sticky thread in the M1 Carbine Forum. ;)

Infantry Weapons and their Effects (WWII and Korean era U.S. Training Films)

Regards,
Doug

From what I have read, 30-30s are still very popular with the Inuit and Inupiat in Alaska and Canada who shoot deer, Elk, Moose, bear, seal, and wolves with the round.

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Originally Posted by imarangemaster

30-30s are still very popular

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I have one in the locker right now, 1902 made '94 rifle, round barrel that started it's life right in this area. I wouldn't part with it, they work fine.

I have a Marlin 336 30-30 in the safe. Dead accurate!

Zone 1: UP of Michigan
Zone 2: Upper Lower Michigan
In Zone 1 and 2: The Rifle Zones, 30-30, 30-06 and .308 among the top 5 here for Deer hunting.
It's said the 30-30 has taken the most deer in Michigan overall.
I still use my Marlin 336RC 'Waffle Top' when hunting above the rifle line.
Zone 3: Most use their Slug guns. I prefer my .50 Cal Muzzle loader longer reach, less drop.

Now older I admit to figuring the length of drag out before shooting.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...rKqEFrX5-1.jpg

Here was a bow kill. Lucky cause I didn't gun hunt that year.
Following year no kills bow hunting but during gun season I scored.
The 2 on the old couch behind the barn were shot with the muzzle loader. Shot the one on the left first right next to my yardage marker 175yrds. Reloaded and walked over to tag it when the one on the right stepped out of the tree line about 65 yrds away. 2 tags filled in 15 minutes and the great part was I could drive our old Gimmy right to them !!

Excuse the PB Adds....

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07300-1.jpg

Year later:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07509-1.jpg

Did you poke 'em as they were crawlin' out of that sofa Charlie?

If I could add 1 more picture.
I would always take 'My Little Crippled Buddy' out for a day or two if he was up for it. He was injured in Vietnam and Wheelchair dependent, I built a special ramped hunters blind that was 6' off the ground but he could still wheel up in to. Had a small wood stove with a cook top made up for it by the local farm equipment repair shop guys. So we always had a pot of something and coffee ready. Also hooked up a 12 volt battery to run lights and a converter to charge field radios. Had bought a older beat up GMC Gimmie that used more oil than gas. You had to laugh at the smoke rising above the tree tops when seeing it from across the farm chugging down a trail. I'd get him in it and bungee his chair on the tailgate. He'd get his whole deer processed in to jerkey and burger. He lived alone so even a small deer would last him a long time, he'd save some jerkey for our spring perch trip. Most of the time I'd be across the farm and with him being in the lofted blind he'd call out what and where he was seeing deer. One day while we were both in there trying to avoid the freezing rain this small buck stepped out from the side of 'The Scuttle Buck Lodge'. It stepped right in front of the main shooting window, looking away giving us a good look at it's rear end. Too hard to swing his long barreled slug gun around he pulled his Beretta .32 Auto and shot it in the back of the head. That was about a 8'-9' shot. It face planted right there A$$ up. Man I can still hear him laughing. I stepped out to tag it and drag it farther away from the shanty to gut it when he chirped out to take my muzzle loader. He was handing it out the window and telling me to look towards the Hickory trees. Before I could tag his for him I drew down on this other one pictured. We had a good day. I was able to get both deer in the Gimmie and his Wheelchair tied to the top. We still laugh about that day. Even though a Tornado hit the blind leaving only the posts in the ground.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...KIF_2577-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Did you poke 'em as they were crawlin' out of that sofa Charlie?

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They'd been hanging in the barn. He had a buddy that came by to pick them up to process at his shop. Ended up nailing them on the side of the barn for that sun bleached look.
That old couch was shot up with a Thompson and IIRC a Uzi. Short bursts......... then stow the arms and go back to bench or skeet. Neighbors about 1-1/4 mile away thought every boom was illegal. So every now and then we'd send them a little serenade to welcome them to the country. Types that bought an acre but thought they run the county. Every time they'd call the police it would be 1 of the 2 or 3 County LEO's that my buddy did Smith work for back in his working days. Sometimes they'd pull something from their trunk and take a few shots.


SORRY IRM, I was on a roll. Didn't mean to get your Topic so Off Topic !

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SORRY IRM, I was on a roll. Didn't mean to get your Topic so Off Topic !

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Hmmmm ... :thup:

Regards,
Doug