Ammunition types, .303 British

Found a surplus web site that has boxes of original and repackaged british surplus ammunition.

Even though the ammunition was made by the UK government, the same cartridge designations have been labeled as being made specifically for certain weapons.

Ie, the same Mark VI can be labeled as "rifle", "Vickers gun", and "lewis gun" only.

My question is, what sort of twit would have come up with idea like that. Seen to accounts over the years of ww1 machine gunners, particularly aircraft, taking boxes of pre belted .303 british and simply pulling them and sticking them in lewis drums. And so forth have seen far to many accounts from both wars and multiple regions of the infantry taking belted ammunition from unusable MG and unbolting them and using in their rifles.

I can't explain all of the instances you cite above, but there was certainly two standards of ammunition in WW1 & through the inter-war period. There was ground service ammunition & air service ammunition. The air service ammunition was made to slightly tighter tolerances (I don't know the specifics but probably have them in a reference book somewhere) than ground service ammunition. Having your Vickers guns jam in mid-air was likely to be more of a problem than if it happened on the ground, hence the more stringently made ammo for the RFC/RNAS/RAF. I can't remember for certain but I think it may well have been in 1940 that the two standards were abolished & all ammunition was made to the air service standards. I believe packaging was marked, but individual rounds are easy to distinguish: ground service ammo was only marked with the last two digits of the date of manufacture, whereas air service ammunition was marked with the date in full. eg. GB 17 VII - Greenwood & Batley 1917 ground service ammunition; K 1918 VII - Kynoch 1918 air service ammunition; K 1918 VIIG - Kynoch 1918 air service tracer.

British .303 was also marked NOT TO BE FIRED IN SYNCHRONIZED GUNS AFTER 19XX, June XX or whatever date they specified and it was marked on the chest..

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Originally Posted by pocketshaver

My question is, what sort of twit would have come up with idea like that.

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Quality, quality control at work those twits knew what quality was needed for certain applications. The troops knew what was needed to keep them a live when the $%^& hit the fan

only differentials I have ever seen mentioned in british government colour plates was differentiation between the material used to make the tip inserts, ie wood, bakelight, or alulminum

Quality control as in test firing the finished product on a regular basis for wear in the machinery, dies etc.

Another example was that Winchester were unable to meet the tight tolerances and their ammunition was labelled 'not suitable for aircraft use'.

Extract from the War Office Instructions :

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Originally Posted by pocketshaver

Ie, the same Mark VI can be labeled as "rifle", "Vickers gun", and "lewis gun" only.

My question is, what sort of twit would have come up with idea like that.

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IIRC, the Mark VI for use in rifle had the flat base bullet heads, and the ammo for Vickers MG's was boat tail. Not sure about the Lewis.

The flat base bullets work better in Lee-Enfields, but when the **** hits the fan, both work in each and will still so the job if one or other is all you've got.

The Germans even made special 'match' grade sniper ammo for issue to the front line snipers, but given the logistics problems the Wehrmacht had throughout most of WW2, I wonder how many German snipers ever got to use the sniper grade ammo.

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

IIRC, the Mark VI for use in rifle had the flat base bullet heads, and the ammo for Vickers MG's was boat tail. Not sure about the Lewis.

The flat base bullets work better in Lee-Enfields, but when the **** hits the fan, both work in each and will still so the job if one or other is all you've got.

The Germans even made special 'match' grade sniper ammo for issue to the front line snipers, but given the logistics problems the Wehrmacht had throughout most of WW2, I wonder how many German snipers ever got to use the sniper grade ammo.

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I presume you mean MkVII.
MkVI was the 'round nosed' round and was replaced in 1910 with the MKVII

The MK VIII (Boat-tail) or as the War Office call it "Streamlined" was not introduced until 1938



Source :

Army Ordnance Services Part 7 : Pamphlet No11
Small Arms Ammunition
Issued by the War Office - 24th February 1945

(Extract from 131 page document)

Mark 8Z 303-in SAA (Small Arms Ammunition) has a neonite load and a streamlined based bullet. Trial firings have proved that these (Mk7 and Mk8z) two types of ammunition do not wear the barrels in the same manner. Barrels which have been used for Mk7 or 303-in Tracer become inaccurate much sooner when Mk8Z is used in them, than barrels in which Mk8z only has been employed.
One advantage of Mk8z ammunition is that the barrel maintains accuracy and elevation until the actual moment of collapse. No indication of approaching barrel failure is given when Mk8z ammunition is used. Accuracy is liable to break down very suddenly and the barrel becomes dangerous for use for overhead fire in the latter stages of its life. To ensure the safety of our own troops during overhead fire by medium machine guns, the life of a Vickers gun barrel using Mk8z SAA ONLY has, therefore been fixed at 10,000 rounds (or 40 belts). This figure is well within the number of rounds successfully completed by the earliest failure of barrels firing and endurance accuracy test under conditions of excessively rapid rates of fire. If, however even a few rounds of cordite loaded SAA are fired, the Mk8z accuracy life drops considerable.

The following instructions regarding the use of these various types of 303-in SAA will be strictly enforced :-
a).303-in. Vickers machine gun battalions.
1) Mk8z ONLY to be used.
2) Mixed belts of Mk8z and tracer must NOT be used.
3) Any barrel that has fired Mk7 or .303-in tracer must NOT be used for firing Mk8Z
4) Barrel life for Mk8Z is 10,000 rounds.

Barrels of Vickers machine guns in machine gun battalions which have fired Mk7, .303-in tracer. Or .303-in AP SAA will be stamped with the figure 7 on the trunnion block and returned to ordnance through normal channels. New barrels for use with Mk8z will be demanded in exchange.


b) Light Machine Guns*
Mk8z being neonite loaded gives a small flash at night. When the Bren gun is being used for some special purpose at night, e.g. on a patrol, it may be desirable to make use of Mk8z in order to lessen the flash.

c) Rifles*
Mk8z SAA will not be used in rifles except as in the case of the Bren gun (see above), if necessity should arise.

I think the Mk8z ball was essentially the military adoption of the inter-war developed target shooters' 303 SL (stream lined) bullet.

The Bible on all this, apart from original government documentation of course, is the late Peter Labbett's superb work, simply entitled '.303 Inch', IIRC. I was lucky enough to pick up a copy about 25 years ago from Jeremy Tenniswood, when he had a few. About the same time I picked up the equivalent (& equally as detailed) book on the 7.9mm cartridge by Daniel Kent. Both are invaluable & both are almost impossible to find these days.......if anyone knows of copies of either of these books at anything less than stratospheric prices, then buy 'em!

The late Tony Edwards was a significant part of the cartridge collecting community and compiled a huge listing of British SAA information which is available here British Military Small Arms Ammo .

True. Tony was a fount of knowledge on small arms ammunition & his passing was a great loss to the collecting community. His knowledge wasn't just restricted to ammunition; he had great knowledge of weapons themselves, & was also an experienced WW1 battlefield explorer. We met up on several occasions UNDER the Western Front, on battlefield archaeology projects. He was a member of the Durand Group who explore the tunnel systems under the old front lines. It was they who made the residual mine charge safe that was still lying under the public coach park at the Vimy Ridge memorial site!

Sorry, I've digressed......!

I did read about 2 mines that did not go up one did years after the war due to a lightning strike so they found the missing mine then, maybe they can find the mechanical tunneler the brits used but it became jammed when they had a tea break and the good ol Ypres clay squeezed in trapping it forever.
That part of the war would have been truely terrifying not knowing when the enemy would camoflette you or you'd be fighting them hand to hand in pitch blackness no that took courage to a much higher level I think.

There were four mines known as 'The Birdcage mines' near Plugstreet Wood at the Southern end of the Salient Cinders. None of them were detonated when the Messines mines were blown. I gather they were considered to be out of the immediate area to be captured. The intention was to dismantle them at a later date, but it never happened. One you referred to was detonated in a thunderstorm in 1955 (no human fatalities, only a cow), & the other three are still there.....! And no doubt there will be many other smaller charges left in various places along the old front line........ones that just got forgotten about.


It was Tony that told me (& it's one of those pub quiz type facts) that at the peak of production reached during 1917 Britain & the Dominions were producing 300,000,000 rounds of .303 SAA PER MONTH!