No.4 T serial vs req numbers

First, what a wonderful site. I inherited a No 4 Mk 2 T built in 1944. On the H.B.M Co .#32 scope the req number is 11138. That number appears on the top of my stock as well. But the serial number on the trigger band(?) is D35598. This number is on the bolt handle and scope mount too. So I think I have a mix and match of parts but can anyone tell me how the requisition number is different from a serial number? Also the mount, it almost feels like iron. on it the front rings are stamped Z228 and the rear mounts Z230. I appreciate any insight. What a wonderful rifle!

Hello & welcome. It rather sounds like you have a matching No4 sniper rifle made by BSA in England in 1944. I think you'll find it is a No4 Mk1 T, not Mk2, as the No4 Mk2 rifle did not appear until just after WW2. The two different numbers that you have noted are just as it should be. The scope serial number of 11138 & markings indicate that it was made by the Houghton Butcher Manufacturing Company & its number would be expected to be on the butt just behind the cocking piece at the back of the bolt. The other number that you have found, D35598 is the serial number of the rifle, so it is good that the bolt & the receiver bear the same number & match up. The rifle serial number was also stamped on the scope bracket (it is made from cast malleable iron) as you note. This was done so that if the scope & bracket were removed from the rifle, they could readily be mated up again. Although all scope brackets & all body pads (rifle mount bases) look the same, they were all carefully factory mated to each other for optimal accuracy, hence the importance of not mixing up scopes & brackets on the wrong rifles. The only other minor thing I would query is that you mention the numbers on the rings as being Z228 & Z230. They were always numbered consecutively (rear ring lower number & front ring higher number), so I would expect either Z228 & Z229, or Z229 & Z230. It might just be worth double checking that. Incidentally, I suspect your scope bracket will probably also bear 'N92' near the front, indicating that it was made at the Dalgleish iron foundry in Glasgow in Scotland. Again, the numbering of the rings was done to ensure they stayed together & didn't end up the wrong way round, or even fitted to another bracket in error.

We might be able to give you more info if you can manage a few photo's.

Hope this helps you a little.

Thanks Roger, great information. As to the points you brought up, take a look at the bolt. Has MKII stamped on it? Or does that have some other meaning? Bore is pretty dang clean considering. A lot of sloppy tool marks though. I think someone tried to varnish some of the wood. If I can get it bore-sighted and figure out that scope, I'll post pictures of the groups, good or bad. Need to fire-form some brass, this is going to be fun coming up with recipes for. Any bullet/powder combinations you guys are favoring for these?

Hi Atticus,

Congratulations on a lovely matching (T)! So, the N67 Mk II indicates that part was made by the Singer Manufacturing Company (N67 dispersal code) and that it is the second (Mk II) version of the striker. The Mk I was a round knob. Hope that helps! Also, I can't quite tell from my screen, but is there a screw/bolt that runs through the fore-end just ahead of the magazine well?

Thanks, I hope it shoots better than I do. Yes it has the screw.

I think you will find that your scope bracket numbers are correct and are actually Z22 and Z23 (the other small mark which I think you are including in the number looks like it may be a 'letter')


For example mine are marked 719 T and 720 T (with a space between the number and the letter)

I suggest that Atticus Thrace examine the serial numbers on the body socket and bolt handle. If looks to me as if the last digit is a 6 not an 8, thus D35596.

M47C was the 1944-1945 wartime code for Birmingham Small Arms (BSA)’s factory at Shirley England .

The ENGLAND mark was a requirement of US law with the McKinley Tariff Act requiring the country of origin to be shown. This was stamped on when they were surplus.

The scope clamps appear to be numbered Z229 rear pair and Z230 for the front pair. The “9” stamp is an odd shape I do admit.

There should be:
- a “T” on flat left side of the body.
- “S51” on the underside of the butt.
- “S” on the right side of body on the small flat area below the bolt head.
- 35596 should be stamped into the underside of the fore-end, probably lengthwise.
- The scope bracket should have the rifle serial number on the left side above the rear mounting screw knob. The D may be above or to the left of the number 35596
- The magazine may or may not have the rifle serial number on its bottom.

My web site has some information on these No.4 Mk.I (T) rifles.

Lee-Enfield No. 4 MK. I (T) sniper rifle www.captainstevens.com

As well Milsurp.com has some overall excellent detailed photo studies of many firearms including the No.4 Mk.I (T) under “Knowledge Library” left end of menu bar at top of the page. This is not always visible if on a smartphone.
https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...united-kingdom

Atticus, it is Z229 & Z230. The digits are often poorly stamped as they were all done in a hurry! You have a lovely (& quite valuable) rifle. Can we please have a view of the scope bracket showing the opposite side to the cradle clamp serial numbers? Curious to get a good look at it, although it all looks ok so far. Just personal curiosity.

Thanks one and all. Seaforth you are correct it's a 6. Most of the other markings you mentioned exist. But I need to go over it again. I'll run home at lunch and get that scope bracket picture Roger. It's funny, I read a few articles online and talk to a few people and I think I have a good idea what I'm dealing with. But you guys are sick with knowledge. The level of detail is incredible. I'll grab my credit card and become a contributing member too. Because the next one I pull out of the safe is the Gewehr-43, and I know nothing of those and access to knowledge like this feels weird without earning it or compensating. Have a great day everyone.

I see mention of it's potential value, but I want this to be a shooter. Any reason normal, light use would impact it's value?

No, so long as you treat her carefully & keep her clean!

Before my government decided I was not responsible enough to own a full bore self loading rifle I had three G43 snipers.....a duv 44, a bcd (solid rail without the locking notch in it), & a K43 marked ac 44.......one of each manufacturer. Happy days, now long gone........

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Originally Posted by Atticus Thraxx

I see mention of it's potential value, but I want this to be a shooter. Any reason normal, light use would impact it's value?

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Nope.
I happily shoot my similar condition, matching 4(T) in a normal, light use way. Enjoy it.

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:02 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Before my government decided I was not responsible enough to own a full bore self loading rifle I had three G43 snipers.....a duv 44, a bcd (solid rail without the locking notch in it), & a K43 marked ac 44.......one of each manufacturer. Happy days, now long gone........

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:crying::bitch:

And what those 3 would be worth today 32 years later just makes it even worse.........

It's a shame, we can't have say pre-1946 design/built semi-auto centre fire on a similar ticket to the 7.3 pistol, which would at least allow for G43, Garand, M1 Carbine etc in the UK.
I noticed the other day that the firearms legislation in Malta allows for fully auto ownership if made before 1946.

Hmm......& the weather's nice in Malta!

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Hmm......& the weather's nice in Malta!

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And those little round balls of chocolate with the 'honeycomb' centre are not bad either, if I could just remember what they are called ………………………….

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

And those little round balls of chocolate with the 'honeycomb' centre are not bad either, if I could just remember what they are called ………………………….

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:rofl:

Seaforth, from your list:
- a “T” on flat left side of the body.- Do not see it
- “S51” on the underside of the butt. - Yes, see pictures I posted
- “S” on the right side of body on the small flat area below the bolt head. - Do not see it
- 35596 should be stamped into the underside of the fore-end, probably lengthwise. - Yes, also has a crown-like stamp before it, coming from barrel end
- The scope bracket should have the rifle serial number on the left side above the rear mounting screw knob. The D may be above or to the left of the number 35596 - Yes, see new pic
- The magazine may or may not have the rifle serial number on its bottom. - Yes! Thank you, didn't know to look, I have it.

Some worn markings near the S51. Looks like a 37 then a symbol very worn then a 47 below. Looks like the was a star inside an oblong symbol between these and the S51. I see there's a couple of books on Amazon and Seaforth I'll be drilling down into your site too. Great stuff, thanks everyone. Roger I thin this is the picture you requested.

I suppose actually posting the picture would be helpful. :madsmile:

Cheers. Yes, it's a very clean bracket. You can just make out the '2' & perhaps part of the '9' at the front, of the 'N92', indicating manufacture by Dalgleish in Glasgow. (There were two UK manufacturers of scope brackets; Dalgleish, & Rose Brothers, of Gainsborough in Lincolnshire).

Nice rifle. Here is her relative, pretty close in s/n to both rifle and scope, one could say they were on the floor together at H&H back in '44.

One last question, my library doesn't include an actual manual but I do have these two books. Can I get a recommendation for any other useful books for a No.4(T) other than a manual? Seems like there's a bunch.

Seaforth I found the "S". It's underneath, right below the front swivel. The "TR" is not on the wood, but on the trigger band.

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Originally Posted by Atticus Thraxx

One last question, my library doesn't include an actual manual but I do have these two books. Can I get a recommendation for any other useful books for a No.4(T) other than a manual? Seems like there's a bunch.

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This one

https://photos.imageevent.com/badger...Laidler-HC.jpg

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Originally Posted by Atticus Thraxx

One last question, my library doesn't include an actual manual but I do have these two books. Can I get a recommendation for any other useful books for a No.4(T) other than a manual? Seems like there's a bunch.

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Whilst nothing to do with the No.4T I would also recommend, Sniping in France by Major Hesketh-Pritchard.

This book gives a good look at the humble beginnings of British sniping during the Great War and is a good primer to Captain C. Shores book, With British Snipers to the Reich.

If you want plenty of detail about the use of your rifle in service look out for a copy of the UK government's 1951 sniping pamphlet. It is called a pamphlet but it's a small book! If you want a good general grounding on sniping over the last century, with plenty on the 4T included, then Skennerton's 'The British Sniper' is very good, though the photographs seem a little grainy by modern standards....but then it did appear nearly forty years ago, & is a must if you're seriously interested. The other text is much more recent & was written by one of our very own forummers, & that's Steve H's book on a century of British army sniping. Forget the exact title but someone will no doubt chip in with it shortly.......lots of very high quality close up photo's in this one, too. And of course Peter L's books; on the rifle & on the No32 scope - I see the rifle book has already been mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Steve H's book on a century of British army sniping

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The British Sniper: A Century of Evolution. Excellent book!!! Highly recommend PMing chosenman for info on ordering a copy!

Check the MKL. :thup:

Sniping in France 1914-18 (by Major H. Hesketh-Prichard DSO, MC.)C.)

Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by 303 Gunner

The British Sniper: A Century of Evolution. Excellent book!!! Highly recommend PMing chosenman for info on ordering a copy!

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Done. A trip to storage this morning did save me some $$. If only they were autographed...;)