Armoured panel ID.

Here's a tricky one guys.

One of the club's I am a member of, just reopened our outdoor range (thank god), it's an old RAF airfield and the butts have just been dug out, lead recovered and refilled for the first time since WW2.

The original steel target gear was recovered, having been buried in soil for decades along with some steel panels.

One panel was still half buried, so I spent 30 mins digging it out and cutting the roots that had grown through the bullet holes.

Clearly hammered by .50 cal and and .303, inpacted 9mm is still stuck to the surface... It's 6 mm thick, 8 inches wide, 16 inches long (ish) and clearly been riveted to something along both sides...

I would think it's been blasted by aircraft machine guns, as I can't see .50 cal being used in any other way on a wartime RAF airfield.

So, were these part of standard WW2 range equipment, or armoured panels from aircraft?

Any thoughts guys ....

It's being cleaned and mounted!

That matrix lying there should have been up front of the sloping backstop to hold target frames originally. The steel plate I can't imagine, there shouldn't be anything in there but sand to catch bullets. Anything hard negated the absorbing quality of sand and causes ricochets. If it were armor, it would definitely do that...maybe it was just disposed there at wars end because no one cared? Then someone resurrected the SA 25 yd range...

First cleaning in 75 years...range control will be doing fits... The salvage must have been enormous.

The turning target frames look like they are from a standard 4/5 lane 25 yard range. All airfields would have had one of these, some even had doubles built back to back...!
Fighter airfields also had aircraft test firing pits that would allow a fighter to be pushed in and the function and alignment of the guns tested. Bomber airfields did not have these as the aircraft were not fitted with co-axially mounted guns. Initially all UK fighters used .303 guns.. the theory was that having a lot of shots was more important than the effect of a single shot, and early aircraft were very weight limitied. Latterly .50 machine guns and 20mm cannon were fitted.

I cannot see that your steel plate was ever part of an official range practice. Steel plate targets are used for research and proof firings, but they are always used in a specially designed proof range that is designed to cope with ricochets... The guns are usually fired remotely from behind cover. This looks like the results of an unofficial "fun shoot" with .50 and 20mm Hispano cannon...!

It could be the steel plate from the back of a pilots seat.. this was the only armouring on a lot of RAF aircraft!

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

That matrix lying there should have been up front of the sloping backstop to hold target frames originally. The steel plate I can't imagine, there shouldn't be anything in there but sand to catch bullets. Anything hard negated the absorbing quality of sand and causes ricochets. If it were armor, it would definitely do that...maybe it was just disposed there at wars end because no one cared? Then someone resurrected the SA 25 yd range...

First cleaning in 75 years...range control will be doing fits... The salvage must have been enormous.

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Hi Jim, the range was abandoned for years following WW2 and came back into use by my local club in the late 1960's.

My Father-in-law organised Home Office approval at the time and the way the system works, providing it remains in use, or no complaints are recorded, it just carries on without inspection.

It's up to the range occupies to keep it safe.

Even today, it's only occasionally used, so not 'masses' of lead.

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Originally Posted by bombdoc

The turning target frames look like they are from a standard 4/5 lane 25 yard range. All airfields would have had one of these, some even had doubles built back to back...!
Fighter airfields also had aircraft test firing pits that would allow a fighter to be pushed in and the function and alignment of the guns tested. Bomber airfields did not have these as the aircraft were not fitted with co-axially mounted guns. Initially all UK fighters used .303 guns.. the theory was that having a lot of shots was more important than the effect of a single shot, and early aircraft were very weight limitied. Latterly .50 machine guns and 20mm cannon were fitted.

I cannot see that your steel plate was ever part of an official range practice. Steel plate targets are used for research and proof firings, but they are always used in a specially designed proof range that is designed to cope with ricochets... The guns are usually fired remotely from behind cover. This looks like the results of an unofficial "fun shoot" with .50 and 20mm Hispano cannon...!

It could be the steel plate from the back of a pilots seat.. this was the only armouring on a lot of RAF aircraft!

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Yep, standard RAF 25 yrd range, with a facility to go back to 50 and 80 on one lane, if you're there by yourself.

I think it was originally also used for aircraft machine gun synchronization etc.

I couldn't think why there would steel plates as part of the set up. It seems like a bloody dangerous passtime!

The .50, 20mm? will clearly punch through, the 9mm/.38 is splattered all over it, but .303, well, steel helmet on and duck!

Does anybody have any links to pics of Steel targets or aircraft seat armour?

It would be great to I'd it...

It could be a variation of this short range target frame

Attachment 108335

But steel targets were out of style by the early 1900's, the last on my range was replaced in 1902.

Interesting Muffet, thanks for digging that out mate.

The surviving apparatus does seem like standard spec though....

Very little out there on the web (with regards to pics) about target steel or aircraft armour, real anorak stuff this!

I will have to have a dig about up there to see what else I can find !

John,
Better on here rather than texting. Some facts not commonly known. My dad was RAF based at Gransden Lodge Airfield which was a Lancaser Pathfinder field about three miles from where I live currently in Cambridgeshire.

It quickly became a test and development airfield as such things as the ground mist/smog clearing device called FIDO was developed there as well as the Rose Turret/rear guns of the Lancaster.

The issues in those wartime days, was German night fighters creeping up behind Pathfinder Squadrons and causing mayhem and large losses.

Dad and others ripped all the perspex out of the rear cockpits so the tail gunner had a better view at night and could quickly see silouhette's coming at them. They initially trialled twin .303's which proved next to useless and moved quickly onto four. They also trialled 30 and 50 calibre in the tail but Rose Brothers of Gainsborough, who ironically went on to make 4T brackets too with their specialism's, and named the hydraulic ring in the tail as the Rose Cockpit, but the whole mountings shook to a point where the gunner could not hold the weapon on target..................so they went back to four .303's and believe this or not, the Lanc was shackled down at the back end and the aim was to fire as many rounds to see if those were the right guns for the job, which they were.

They shackled down Mosquitos and other aircraft which I forget now that he told me about as they trialled lots under a caviat of TOP SECRET on the airfield. So in short, many ranges were open plan at the firers point so aircraft could be backed up and fire into the sand.
Clearly the bigger guns which I suspect there are a few 50 cal holes in your images also let lose.
Now you know where I got my design head from!!:banghead:

Meant to say, that I have loads of WW2 airfield plans showing the MMG Ranges. I cn photograph them if interested, but I can see if your airfield John had those aircraft on site that needed their weapons sorting this way.

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Originally Posted by muffett.2008

It could be a variation of this short range target frame

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That's what I remember from our outdoor 25 yd...

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

many ranges were open plan at the firing point so aircraft could be backed up and fire into the sand.

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Many would have the wall and bullet catch VERY close to the flight line, open as suggested. The one in Bordon Ontario had a tunnel affair dug that sloped down at about 30 degrees for the 20mm cannon of the later aircraft to function. Looked like a mine shaft. It supplanted the old surface "25 yd".

RAF Babdown Farm 1939-1948 situated just South of Tetbury in Gloucestershire.

RAF Babdown was built in 1939/ 40 as a satellite station for RAF Hullavington and was in the main originally a grass runway. It was used for night flying tasks, and then in 1942 was redeveloped into 3 full cross Sommerfield track runways by John Laing & Son to accept heavier aircraft.
The full station infrastructure was built as an RAF station as per War Office guidance.
RAF Hullavington its sister station became the major Parachute packing station for all issued parachutes, througout the war and right into the late 1970's, a roll performed by WRAf staff.

As I mentioned earlier and going by the facts that we can see after your digs in the butts there, that Babdown Farm was no different to many stations experiencing zeroing problems on aircraft front and rear turrets. I am trying to find some WW2 footage which shows this practice going on, but by the middle of the war, other purpose built ranges were also built on the RAF stations.

Cheers Gil, many thanks for your research mate....

I dont think your steel panel would be armour plating. I wouldn't expect a .303 to go through armour plate steel.
A neighbour of mine recovered the armour plate from the pilots canopy of a shot down FW190. The canopy broke of the plane and landed in their field, about 100 yards from the farmhouse. The pilot parachuted out but was apparently dead when found. The remainder of the plane came down on the otherside of the village.
He told me that some of the shell cases were dropping onto the barn roof. it was American planes that shot it down, it was 1944.
He still has the armour, they have had it on the farm workbench and still use it when they need beat anything with a hammer. In 75 years they've not managed to put a dent in it!
Attachment 108337

I believe they moved over to tracer at the same time as armour piercing rounds when they were having a real job hitting the night fighter targets at night from the rear of the Lancs. This was the same time they trialled taking all the perspex out to give the gunner the very best night vision possible to seek out the silouhettes coming at them to then relay to the Skipper to deviate his course left or right.
There were also lots of technical gizmos in the tails of the Lancs which worked fine for a while I remember my dad telling me, but towards the end of the war the Germans used the radar beacons to locate the bombers. Can't remember its name I'm afraid, hands sore from clapping for the NHS and one too many beers I'm afraid :lol:

Some pilots may have added their own additional armour to their aircraft, i.e. behind their seat.

P-40 fighter machine gun convergence set on firing range - YouTube

20mm Hispano cannon test - YouTube

Here's a few more pics,after shooting the AR today, I had a mooch about in the undergrowth and pulled out two similar panels, with traces of white paint and a bracket hung piece of inch thick steel.

Clearly armour piecing .303 has been fired at at it, looking at the penetrations into the steel, plus some stomping with .50 AP too, I should imagine.

Located with them is some sort of hanging arm, see pics.

Without hands on I would think the dents in the small plate are normal ball. The other holes might be any similar size bullet. Possibly testing penetration on armour?

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Without hands on I would think the dents in the small plate are normal ball. The other holes might be any similar size bullet. Possibly testing penetration on armour?

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That's interesting, it's the only inch thick plate I've found, I can't say I've ever fired ball ammunition against steel, but I am surprised it will penetrate approximately half way through one inch thick steel?

I assumed standard ball would simply put a small dish into thick steel plate.

The rectangular building that once stood in front (only the foundations left now) must have had some sort of protection built in. Either that, or sandbagged very well indeed!

Just the armourers hut left standing today.

Certainly armour piercing rounds used in the thicker plate there John, which as I said earlier was not uncommon as they stepped up their weaponry from the .303 to .50 and others in the rear turrets solely for the Pathfinder Squadrons against attack by night fighters.
The Lancasters only had what they had in and around the cockpit, enough for a few sustained bursts, not like the Wellingtons and others who had a large rack system to feed the rounds to the guns.

I think I've found our culprits guys, No 52 OTU operating Spitfires were active at Babdown, it would explain the use of the 25 yard rifle range for calibres
"slightly" above it's designed use!

Then it would have been small arms, .303/.30-06/9mm/.45acp/.38 (perhaps 7.92 Besa) I think that covers it?

I would assume that local home guard units used the range too.

Wartime pressure would allow a certain relaxing of rules I am sure, but all the same, I wouldn't want to be driving down the A46 in direct line with 20mm being fired!

These days, my M1 Carbine is at the top end of the ranges muzzle energy restrictions.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

That's interesting, it's the only inch thick plate I've found, I can't say I've ever fired ball ammunition against steel, but I am surprised it will penetrate approximately half way through one inch thick steel?

I assumed standard ball would simply put a small dish into thick steel plate.

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The composition of the steel determines the penetration. Ordinary steel is relatively soft and needs treatment to be hole resistant = armour. Thus shooting plates on a range means the plates have to be a specific steel, otherwise they crater and look like these plates quickly.

Eg in the army we used to shoot falling plates at 100m with the R1 and 303. No problem with holes or craters.
Changing to 5.56 and R4. My first experience with nromal 5.56 ball was that it was useless as the plates didn't fall over. On inspection I found nicely centred holes in the plates, didn't transfer the enercy at all. We changed the steel of the plates to accommodate the new cartridge. Not thicker steel, just better.

You need to remember that modern 5.56 made to the SS109 standard (US Green tip etc) all have a steel pin penetrator to allow them to pass the NATO steel helmet penetration test. You "could" consider them to be AP, however I could not possibly comment..

You need to be careful in trying to estimate calibre by impact mark.. it is a bit of a black art in reality! A complicating issue is for instance the fact that the AP core is invariably smaller in diameter than the base round and is always covered by a larger jacket or sabot. Hardened steel/carbide/DU etc will not do rifling any good! The intial hole is therefor usually smaller than the original calibre. On the other hand, when a hard core strikes a plate, there are a number of ways the metal react.. it can either shatter, plug or undergo plastic deformation (..or all three!) if there is any form of plastic deformation, this will tend to expand the cavity made by the projectile, leading to a larger hole than you would expect.. It all depends on the thickness of the plate and its physical characteristics..

There are lots of types of plate armour from simple boiler plate to sophisticated layered composites. Penetration testing is done on what is called "RHA" - Rolled Homogeneous Armour, which is actually pretty soft, but is a known standard. WW2 armour tended to be case hardened cast steel, where carbon was baked into the surface to give a hard skin, but leaving a tough base. The idea was to shatter the tips of AP rounds but then capture the projectile without failing.

Firing AP or modern projectiles such as NATO 5.56 against hard targets is a seriously bad idea! What happens is that the AP pin splits the jacket from the core.. the core splatters, but the jacket is stripped off and comes back towards the firer.. which can be amusing! This is why shooting at falling plates in a gallery range is now forbidden...!

Modern? My first shots were in 1987 IIRC. No super duper ammo yet but I agree with the green tips. And I agree with your comments, well put.

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Originally Posted by bombdoc

You need to remember that modern 5.56 made to the SS109 standard (US Green tip etc) all have a steel pin penetrator to allow them to pass the NATO steel helmet penetration test. You "could" consider them to be AP, however I could not possibly comment..

You need to be careful in trying to estimate calibre by impact mark.. it is a bit of a black art in reality! A complicating issue is for instance the fact that the AP core is invariably smaller in diameter than the base round and is always covered by a larger jacket or sabot. Hardened steel/carbide/DU etc will not do rifling any good! The intial hole is therefor usually smaller than the original calibre. On the other hand, when a hard core strikes a plate, there are a number of ways the metal react.. it can either shatter, plug or undergo plastic deformation (..or all three!) if there is any form of plastic deformation, this will tend to expand the cavity made by the projectile, leading to a larger hole than you would expect.. It all depends on the thickness of the plate and its physical characteristics..

There are lots of types of plate armour from simple boiler plate to sophisticated layered composites. Penetration testing is done on what is called "RHA" - Rolled Homogeneous Armour, which is actually pretty soft, but is a known standard. WW2 armour tended to be case hardened cast steel, where carbon was baked into the surface to give a hard skin, but leaving a tough base. The idea was to shatter the tips of AP rounds but then capture the projectile without failing.

Firing AP or modern projectiles such as NATO 5.56 against hard targets is a seriously bad idea! What happens is that the AP pin splits the jacket from the core.. the core splatters, but the jacket is stripped off and comes back towards the firer.. which can be amusing! This is why shooting at falling plates in a gallery range is now forbidden...!

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Thanks for the education on steel target/ammunition types, not something I had really thought of before, very interesting.

These steel targets 'appear' to have been hung, looking at the co-located arm.

If I had been there, I would prefer to be in the jacked up spitfire firing the 20mm cannon, behind the armoured wind screen, than stood about watching!

The noise must have been absolutely horrendous without ear defenders, not mention the danger of ricochet.