Bullets tumble upon exit from barrel.

Greetings all, first post and I am new to Lee-Enfields so please be kind 😁 I recently purchased a No. 4 Mk 1/2 and had my first range session yesterday. I fired a total of 60 rounds of PPU 174gr FMJ BT at 50 yards. I am by no means an excellent marksman, but only about 30 rounds landed on the torso-sized paper. Those that did make it onto the target appear to be tumbling as the holes are in the shape of the profile of the bullet. I’m looking for advice for what my next step should be. From what I’ve gathered reading other threads, my options are:
1. Try to find production ammo that uses flat-based bullets. I have read other posts suggesting this could work better with the 2-groove rifling in my barrel.
2. Re-crown the barrel (which doesn’t look terrible to my amateur eye).
3. Load my own ammo (which I was hoping to not have to do, but would be open to starting).
4. Re-barrel the rifle, which seems like it would cost more than I paid for the rifle itself ($400).

Any and all advice is welcome, thank you!

Go the top right corner of the web site and type in the "Search Milsurps.Com" box, something like "bullet tumbling" and check the results.

There's a ton of excellent old threads, many about Enfields, that you may find helpful.

Example: Bullet tumbling

Regards,
Doug

And if I could add to Badgers advice, learn to reload. Besides the economic advantage over buying retail, you also control the quality. Absorbing all this site and others have as far as advice, tips, precautions and what have you will take shave off the initial apprehension. But I so enjoy the process and it's one of those things that you'll see the effort you put in will have results, and equally true when you try and hurry or cut corners or just don't pay enough attention, those are learning moments too. Hopefully without causality. Learning to reload just opens up a whole other dimension to the sport,.

Do the poor mans muzzle gauge get a loaded round stand the rifle on its butt with the bolt open preferably removed then put the pointy end of the projectile into the muzzle and see how far it enters the bore if it leaves about 1/8" - 3/16" of bullet showing before touching the brass neck then the muzzle is not to bad.
You would then look to see if it has cord wear from the pull thru cord wearing out one side of the muzzle causing the gas to vent first from that side before the bullet has exited the barrel.

If the projectile drops right in and the barrel crown is touching the case neck your done and dusted new NOS barrel, lothar walther or criterion barrel time, the rifle may also have excessive throat wear and if the projectile starts in the bore crooked it aint coming out straight either which ever way you look at it tumbling projectiles at 50 yards I'd say your barrel is stooofed...

Also try the search word "Keyholing"

Example :

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=66628&page=1

Two groove barrels are just as good as any other.

Flat base bullets might solve the problem.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

which ever way you look at it tumbling projectiles at 50 yards I'd say your barrel is stooofed...

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Does seem the more likely scenario in the circumstances.....given using PPU ammo, which is the best available commercial ammo, other than finding some genuine milsurp Mk.VII which is not easy......and the fact that it was a $400 rifle, which in this day and age, is somewhat cheap for a No.4?

Keyholing is normally a sign of a shot-out barrel.
Could you ask the seller to take it back on the basis that it doesn't do what it is meant to do,namely shoot properly?
Next time, I could suggest: either ask to try it at the range before buying, or ask to see a 100 meter target which the rifle has shot.
The fixes for this problem are either flat based bullets [virtually unobtainable] or cast over-sized bullets [for dedicated reloaders].
Sorry about this.
Rob

Bummer, I was hoping for some better news. I guess for now I will try to hunt down some flat-based ammo and hope for better results. If I don’t have any success there I will look into Criterion or Lothar Walther for a new barrel. Thanks to everyone for the advice!

So, if you are confident that your aiming and holding was reasonably consistent, 40% of your rounds were not hitting a target about what, 20 inches wide at 50 yards? That's more like a shotgun than a rifle.

Keyholing at 50 yards - that ain't right.

You've visually inspected the bore and it appears to have decent rifling and be straight with no bulges etc.?

A Mk1/2 is a post-war refurb, so likely to be a half decent barrel...

Have someone who you know is a very good shot put some rounds through it and see what result they get with that ammo, and have some flat base .303 ammo on hand for that person to try as well?

If that person gets similar results you will need to investigate the condition further and some of us can help with that.

You could contact the vendor and ask for a "Partial Refund" after politely explaining what the problem is with the rifle. The worst possible outcome, in a worse case scenario, of doing this is that the vendor will tell you to "f*** off" and tell you where to stick your Lee Enfield. Hopefully, the vendor will offer you something back or suggest some other solution that is acceptable to you.

Hornady make a .312 FBSP which fly very will out to 400M I used them in comps out of my 303's both No.4's and my MkIII and won matches but I feel in all reality bloke your just wasting your time if your a member of a club ask around who may have a half decent tube for sale.
If not then its a case of a new barrel and a competent gunsmith who has worked on the Lee lineage to change it.

I say an experienced gunsmith as many an action has been twised due to incorrect barrel removal procedures done by them and once that happens old bean all you have is a tomato stake Brian Dick is the go to chap here but its up to you how far you want to go with splashing the cash.
Pretty sorry you got a bum deal I got one years ago with a MkIII and a very pitted chamber more fool me in not getting my gunsmith to check it pre sale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZT1995

If I don’t have any success there I will look into Criterion or Lothar Walther for a new barrel.

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You should be able to find an issue NOS barrel for cheaper, I had one for years and sold it here. I was never going to use it...meaning there are others here that will have a pipe for you. Place a WTB and see...after the ammo test.

Could a recrown fix the problem

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pisco

Could a recrown fix the problem

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His own suggestion post one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZT1995

2. Re-crown the barrel (which doesn’t look terrible to my amateur eye).

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If it were a case of just large groups, then a poor muzzle may be a contributing factor.. and a re-crown would be worth trying. Unfortunately tumbling bullets are symptomatic of more serious problems, particularly with factory ammunition! This is usually down to a lack of spin, which is usually caused by weak engraving of the rifling on the bullet.

As other have mentioned, you may be able to get better results by using Mk7 flat based bullets or cast gas-checked bullets. This is because Privi uses boat tail bullets which have a tapered base and hence have a reduced area of contact between the bullet and the bore. This will however be only a partial fix.. worn bore is worn bore, and as Enfield rifling is usually quite good at dealing with wear, then the wear on your gun seems to be pretty severe..!

That said, it will be worth having the gun looked at and tried with different ammunition! If you can find a gunsmith with the correct wear gauges that would be the best way forward, but better to do it face to face.. diagnosing gun faults via the internet is probably as sensible as diagnosing pregnancy by the same means!

The problem is probably throat erosion caused by cordite ammo combined with Mk.8 boat tail projectiles which is what PPU and S&B ball ammo is loaded with. If you need a replacement barrel, get one of the nos RFI mfg. replacements from Sarco, send it here and I’ll install it for you. I’ve done more than I can count. They are excellent, reasonably priced and will solve your problem.

---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

Crap, I was thinking SMLE not No.4. I think they’re out of No.4 replacement barrels. Sorry about that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

The problem is probably throat erosion caused by cordite ammo combined with Mk.8 boat tail projectiles which is what PPU and S&B ball ammo is loaded with. If you need a replacement barrel, get one of the nos RFI mfg. replacements from Sarco, send it here and I’ll install it for you. I’ve done more than I can count. They are excellent, reasonably priced and will solve your problem.

---------- Post added at 01:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:32 PM ----------

Crap, I was thinking SMLE not No.4. I think they’re out of No.4 replacement barrels. Sorry about that.

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I did check on Sarco’s website just in case, but did not find a barrel for the No. 4. I will likely go the Criterion route, I’ll send you an email with some further questions.

As subtle as I am your going to the right bloke to get the rig sorted as I am pretty sure if Brian gets his hands on it he will check it over so it it will come back as good if not better than FTR.