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I recently have been searching for a safe queen collection keeper SMLE. I came across a fairly nice matching example and it’’s import marked. Does anyone know the story behind the century import guns? Where did they get them from? When were they imported? Other collectors would you turn down an import marked gun? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Importers resist telling where their stock comes from. None of your questions have solid answers. Some buyers angst over import markings and some don't. I think they add to the history of the gun. Welcome to the form.
I think your comment reference import marks adding to the history was excellent! I never thought of it that way!Quote:
Originally Posted by breakeyp
I've never had a real gripe with import marks, I just view them as part of the rifle's history. Just as long as they're not the electropenciled billboards I've been seeing on No. 4 Mk 2s lately!
Certainly a fear I have had for many years and I am sure I'm not alone.
Some of the scribble MUST have been done by men on moonshine or its equivalent, or they have the DT's and served with a Bomb Disposal unit, its all over the place when you consider they had a template.:madsmile:
While I don't mind the import marks I do respect the preferences of many advanced collectors who do mind.
In the special case of British small arms, collectors are frequently blessed with (occasionally) abundant markings and dates applied by arsenals, factories, units and individuals which tell the "story" of the weapon or at least inspire the imagination.
From heroic deeds down to the lowliest Tommy on sentry-go, these rifles can transcend the ignominies of indifferent storage conditions and poor maintenance by subsequent custodians and even the insult of an importer's stamp or electro-pencil.
Originalty = $. How much do you want to spend?
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...0/xlarge-1.jpg
There is no such beast as a 1913 Lithgow in original pristine unmarked condition. If anybody tells you they have one rest assured it is a Bubba rebuild. The rifle shown has lost many $ to me because it has been tarted up and has the wrong sling for when it left service and is a repro. Returning a Lee Enfield rifle to how you think it left the factory is Bubba at work because you have removed repairs and in service upgrades which now make that rifle something that does not exist except in your mind. The originality is how the rifle left service. Many very valuable historical pieces have been destroyed because of this incorrect thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by MasterChief
I have run into several "Advanced Collectors" who informed me that they only collect original condition guns with no import markings etc. It must be as it left the factory.
I asked then if they would pass on one marked RAF or RCMP. Hem and Haw a statement that those would be special cases. I guess I collect special cases. The history is where they have been, not one that sat in a drawer in the dark.
Exactly! I have a friend who is convinced he "must" have a new No. 4 Mk 2 as his first Enfield, and he wants to shoot it. My counter was that he should find a good seasoned No. 4 Mk I that has some history in itQuote:
Originally Posted by breakeyp
Bindi , I agree with you ,it is like hens teeth to find a original rifle . I like to restore the sporterized rifle s I have back to original spec.i have a 1913 Lithgow that was sporterized and I have worked on finding all the parts from Lithgow to make it a restoration as close to it left the factory. Mine unfortunately had to be restocked with volley sights original plate but I don’t have a lithgow small star nose cap and will continue to look for one to match , everything else like the sight ,bolt magazine and even the bolt head are original to the rifle . But I don’t reperesent it as original .i have 3x 1914 lithgows one is sporterized and went into the Austrian police force after ww2 , one went to India and was restocked and has Indian parts on it but numbered to the original rifle serial and the last one is one that was put into the British army during ww1 and remained there during ww2 and some how ended back up in Aussie hands during ww2 if this one could talk it would be a interesting yarn .i leave my unsporterized ones as is as it is good to keep the history .intact .if someone else has messed with it I enjoy the challenge of collecting and restoring them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
Discrete import marks do not bother me. The Century Billboard is a little too much. I do however avoid import marked K98k rifles, but if the price was low and everything else was correct I would possibly buy one.
I'm sure plenty have bought rifles that the import mark was removed. It's unethical IMO to remove an import mark but perfectly legal.
I've purchased some rare South American Mausers that have German Proofmarks and then upon import my importer laser engraves their mark under the barrel to the minimum requirement by law. You can barely see it. The German marks stand out but I think they look kind of cool and they tell the story of where the rifle has been.
My understanding is Century puts the giant billboard because they are misinformed by their local ATF agent. The giant billboard on the receiver is only required for semi autos, not for bolt rifles.
All the early Lithgows have been through at least three FTRs so will have a a mixture of parts fitted as required. Rebuilding sporters is just a FTR the only thing missing will be the stamps on the butt and left socket. Lithgows have the rifles history stamped into the butt mostly which can be read like a book any thing that breaks the story stands out in flashing lights . Even the wrong furniture is correct if the stamps say so but if you have a rifle with original furniture volley sights, windage sights and cut off in place with the FTR stamps and star in place you know Bubba has been at work. If the star is barred out and the cut off in place its correct. Sanded butts are a NO NO so is any thing other than Linseed oil that is any thingQuote:
Originally Posted by smerdon42
Look after my history put the old girls skirts back on and enjoy them.
Bindi as an Aussie ( ex army) who lives in USA I agree with looking after our history , but if it has already been stripped away . I personally feel it is satisfying to restore them to what our ancestors would of used. My family has been in th military since the first boer war only conflict we hav missed is current one and KoreaQuote:
Originally Posted by Bindi2
That is ok my grandfathers used them in WW1 my father and Uncles used the same FTRd rifles in WW2 and Korea but they were upgraded from the original production, I have been buying the same rifles FTRd again to current specs before sold out of service. Same rifles but as used when sold.Quote:
Originally Posted by smerdon42
Bindi I have a 16 that was ftred in 54 still has original stock and cut off with volley sight no dial on it and no rear peep sight it’s staying as is . Originally from wagga so have shot a lot of 303 around there on Roos
I have early rifles that are still in original issue trim. Boy do they looked tired and battered, then all the way out to the only original piece left is the action/bolt from the last FTR. looking like a new 53.Quote:
Originally Posted by smerdon42
I buy an sell alot of different military rifle. From sporter style hunting rifles that look wonderful. Too bubbas best make mistake. Then the collections or consignments from estates. Very very few are free from some type of military change. Those that are are rare. But the ones i seam to keep are those that have seen it all an done it well. Dog eared an ugly. Plus they still shoot well.
In the case of the SMLE, in some cases you can determine the history of the arm if you post marking or serial numbers.
For example some lots of SMLE rifles were imported by century from Ireland circa 1985 and can be identified by the serial numbers.
Century imported a number of Portuguese SMLE rifles in the pre 1968 period. These rifles lack the UK export proofs of the period, but can only be identified if you have the time of import, as there were other rifles imported from Denmark (early 1960s), Spain (1959) that were not UK export marked.
SA police SMLE and BSAP rifles can be identified by the markings on the wood.
Same is true of NZ SMLE rifles.
Australian issue rifles can often be traced by their markings and if they have century markings, most likely they came out of Pakistan, the big Joe Jovino import lot not being so marked.
If they have the ID disc missing, they generally have WWII overseas issue history, as the ID discs were removed and often the whole not filled. Such guns should also have a lot of history and should have UK export marks and commercial proofs.
all comes down to the details.
If I may just clarify, the UK did not export mark its rifles, the markings such as 'England' which is commonly stated to be a UK export mark is in fact the 'country of origin' required IMPORT mark for the USA Pre-1968.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
Not all rifles exported would have UK civilian (commercial) proof markings unless it had either been first sold into the UK civilian gun market, OR, at the request of the importer (buyer).
capt14k,
I have to wonder who perpetrates some of this mythology. Import marking criteria was put in place in 1968 and is the same for ALL firearms unless a marking variance is applied for and approved by BATFE. Serial numbers must be 1/16" font and other markings can be smaller as long as it's legible. 1/32" is as small as it gets to be legible to the naked eye. Any engraved markings must be applied to a depth of three thousands of an inch. As far as local ATF compliance inspectors giving solid advice on import matters, I can assure you it isn't the case having been inspected here many times over 25 years. The criteria comes only from BATFE Imports Branch and Firearms Technology Branch. Removing import marks as required by Federal law IS illegal.
Brian
20 years ago I was fortunate to buy 2 rifles from Century Arms when they were located in the old St Albans, VT rail yard. I got a Tula Russian SKS that was arsenal refinished complete with peeling varnish stock finish and gobs of cosmolene. Also a #4 MK2 unfired in the cosmolene. Irish war reserve but not mummy wrapped. 2 scratches in the stock and a dent in the magazine, all markings were highlighted with gold marker pen. I've never degreased them.