Quality H.M.C. Bavarian Police - almost original?

Hi there,

I’ve been doing some research on the Quality Hardware M1 Carbine that I recently purchased and I need some help with the stock. First, let’s talk about the metal parts, I believe these to be original except for the magazine catch:

Receiver: Quality H.M.C. serial # 1638xxx
Barrel: Rock-Ola (undated) with P proof mark
Gas Cylinder: Rock-Ola
Type II Flat Bolt: EM-Q (Quality Hardware)
Slide Well: DA-Q (Quality Hardware)
Trigger Housing: Q-NL (Quality Hardware)
Sear: GE-Q (Quality Hardware)
Hammer: LT-Q (Quality Hardware)
Magazine Catch: To be determined (M on right side)
Front Sight: JQ (Quality Hardware)
Type I Rear Sight: GE-Q (Quality Hardware)
Type I Barrel Band: Unmarked

I have not done a full disassembly of this rifle yet, so these are just the markings visible from doing a field strip. So far, the modified magazine catch appears to be the only non-original metal part. Now, let’s talk about the German Police markings before we move onto my questions about the stock:

Top Rear Receiver: 282
Recoil Plate: L.P.W. (Landespolizei Württemberg)
L/H Side of Receiver: 0818
Bottom Trigger Housing: WB-LP-0818

Alright, now the stock. It’s a Type II walnut (or cherry) stock with the oval cut and high wood. The hand guard matches the stock and is Type I with the wide channel and two rivets. The entire rifle is well used and showing it’s usage - the stock is no exception. Here’s the issue: inside the sling well is LW-B (Lumb Woodworking Co. for IBM). Now my initial reaction is that the stock is obviously non-original, but I’m not quite convinced. As far as I can tell it’s the right type, with oval cut, high wood, and two rivets, and like I said, the wear on the stock is consistent with the rest of the rifle. Lastly, on the bottom of the grip is a stag horn marking which is consistent with Württemberg. So..

1) Did Lumb Woodworking Co. supply any stocks for Quality Hardware? I know the manufacturers were sharing supplies with each other during the war. The easiest explanation would be that this stock was with the rifle from the start, although I think it’s probably more complicated than that.

2) Did this rifle get a replacement stock sometime while it was with the German Police? It bears the stag horn marking, so it was obviously with the Landespolizei Württemberg. Maybe a couple stocks got mixed up? It’s a bit of a coincidence that it found another oval cut, high wood, two rivet stock, but not totally unreasonable.

What makes this mystery more difficult is I can’t find any other markings on the stock or hand guard! I think any other markings have long been worn off through the war and it’s time with the Police. Any help with this stock (or the replacement magazine catch) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Tyler

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...93B405A4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...E9F4042E-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5F092CB4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0AC61EC4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7931DDCF-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...59BB1300-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...108C1441-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hurrikane18

Did Lumb Woodworking Co. supply any stocks for Quality Hardware?

---

1st Welcome to Milsurps !
I used to know a gal from Prince Albert... :thup:

I'm not aware of any LWB stocks being sent to QHMC, but doesn't mean it didn't happen. No way to be sure without having a CC stamp on it to see who accepted it.
Very possible the original stock was damaged or as you said just got swapped around.
Others will chime in.

In the mean time here are some links I found using our Search feature with some QHMC's near your range....

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=67757

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=67330

And here in case you haven't seen it a link to LPW use:

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

I am no expert, they will be along shortly but it looks like I see an impression on the stock to where it looks to me like it used to wear a bayonet lug type band. I can't really see great detail on my screen from your pictures, but it does look like it had a different band at one time in its life.the bayonet lug type band was a great deal wider than the band that is on it now. Since the gun is in your possession, does it look like a wider band used to sit there at the front? Is there an even impression on the nose of the stock on both sides?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

1st Welcome to Milsurps !
I used to know a gal from Prince Albert... :thup:

I'm not aware of any LWB stocks being sent to QHMC, but doesn't mean it didn't happen. No way to be sure without having a CC stamp on it to see who accepted it.
Very possible the original stock was damaged or as you said just got swapped around.
Others will chime in.

In the mean time here are some links I found using our Search feature with some QHMC's near your range....

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=67757

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=67330

And here in case you haven't seen it a link to LPW use:

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

---

Thanks for the reply! Sorry you had to meet someone from Prince Albert though :p

Yes that’s what I’m thinking as well, it just seems like a bit of a coincidence that the correct age stock would show up as the replacement (not that I’m complaining, if it did). Thanks for the links, I’ve definitely read through that website in detail, but I’ll check out the threads you posted too.

Cheers!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jond41403

I am no expert, they will be along shortly but it looks like I see an impression on the stock to where it looks to me like it used to wear a bayonet lug type band. I can't really see great detail on my screen from your pictures, but it does look like it had a different band at one time in its life.the bayonet lug type band was a great deal wider than the band that is on it now. Since the gun is in your possession, does it look like a wider band used to sit there at the front? Is there an even impression on the nose of the stock on both sides?

---

Thanks for the reply. Here are some closer pictures of the barrel band.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...51052EF2-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...00DE7AC1-1.jpg

I’m not sure why it would’ve had the wider barrel band though? It wouldn’t have had it originally and it doesn’t now. There is very little evidence of this rifle being rebuilt or parts swapped out other than the magazine release for some reason, and potentially the stock (which is why I’m here). Are you suggesting the LW-B stock may have worn a newer barrel band during the war for some reason? Because I’m fairly confident that even if this stock isn’t original from the factory, it’s at least been with this rifle since it’s time with the German Police.

I had a feeling you had seen the Bavarian link, after reading your ID of markings.
We can all Thank Sleepless Jim M for his work there.

I'm not sure when QHMC switched or phased over from the I cut to Oval Hi-woods... Surely some overlap.

BTW She was a Belgian transplant to the great white north.

I don't see any signs on the stock nose or on the barrel of ever having a bayonet band on it.
The Mag catch could have been as simple as replacing a worn one.
Can you see any letters on the front teeth of your Mag catch? Just curious....
Your stock is Walnut, nice one really.

I wonder if this carbine might have been one of those imported to Canada thru Century ((?) in the 70's (?). Thus no Import markings.

Looks like someone stole 1/2 your mag off of it.... :lol:

Do you shoot it?

Hahaha yeah, here in Canada our freedom is limited to 5 rounds :(

I don’t know who sleepless Jim is, but I thank him for his research! There is some really great information there.

How do you know she was a Belgian?

As for the barrel band, thanks for your input. I just couldn’t see it ever wearing the wider band.

Thanks for identifying the stock as walnut, that’s what I thought as well but I can’t really tell the difference between walnut and cherry and I read somewhere that LW-B used a lot of cherry.

No, I don’t see any letters on the magazine release other than the M, but again I haven’t fully disassembled it yet so there may be something underneath, I’ll let you know. I wonder if the original mag release didn’t work with the 5-round mag? Or like you said, it could have been replaced during the war or even with the Germans, hard to say really.

As for import markings, I have seen none! :) maybe the only good thing about Canada with respect to firearms laws lol.

This rifle is still pretty new to me so I haven’t shot it yet, but I intend to. The ammo just arrived last week. I won’t wear it out by any means, but I like to collect rifles from the world wars and I just can’t help myself to put a box or two down the pipe to get a feel for what it was like. I’ve done this with all my rifles except for my garand, but her time will come as well.

Thanks for the quick replies. I’m new to this forum but I can see myself lingering here more often now in addition to my Canadian sites.

Cheers!
Tyler

Nice Carbine! I took a look at your thread earlier today and made a list of stuff to research later (hopefully) in War Baby. Take a close look at your sling swivel - the shape doesn't look quite right. Someone may have replaced it with a "new" one? Is the barrel standard length, or is that not a problem where you live in Canada? Welcome to the Forum, too! - Bob

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by USGI

Nice Carbine! I took a look at your thread earlier today and made a list of stuff to research later (hopefully) in War Baby. Take a close look at your sling swivel - the shape doesn't look quite right. Someone may have replaced it with a "new" one? Is the barrel standard length, or is that not a problem where you live in Canada? Welcome to the Forum, too! - Bob

---

I believe it’s standard length. The rifle is categorized as “restricted” in Canada because of the barrel length. Extra licensing and more rules. As for the sling swivel, I don’t have another carbine to compare it to so I’m only comparing it to the pictures online as well. I thought it might have looked a bit strange at first too, but it’s hard to tell. The rifle doesn’t have a sling, so I don’t see any reason for someone to have changed it?

Good eye on the barrel band Bob. Looks like it is probably a repro to replace one that was lost or cut off. I have one that was cut off and I'm always looking for an original. Looking forward to seeing what is inside and how many of the original parts are still with it.

Best Regards.....Frank

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankderrico

Good eye on the barrel band Bob.

---

Hi Frank,
You mean the Swivel?
Why would a swivel be cut off?

I see no sign of there ever being a wider type II or III band on it.

A better close up (Macro) type picture might show if it is a commercial replacement.
He stated it was a fairly new rifle to him.
Maybe previous owner lost or replaced it......... the sling is missing and Maybe the oiler too, IIRC.

I lost a swivel to my QHMC somewhere at the range, I believe. Still haven't found a real one, so I bought a Numrich replacement for now.

Good to hear from you, :thup:

I’m away from home now for the weekend but I can take better pictures when I get home. The sling swivel caught my eye too, but as far as I know, the barrel band isn’t meant to come all the way off, so how would just the swivel go missing? The band itself to me looks original and shows wear consistent with the rest of the metal. And yes, I don’t have the oiler or sling. Neither did the previous owner I bought it from, so it’s unlikely he touched the swivel either. Perhaps the guy before him though? He got it in an estate sale so it’s also possible the oiler and sling were in a different box and didn’t make it to sale.

Tyler,
I own 2 carbines with Commercial swivels on them. The one I lost and 1 on a carbine I bought that had the swivel missing. Pull that screw and they can be easy to lose.

I just read this... cause I wanted to know when the german used carbines were shipped to canada.
Copy/pasted from Sleepless Jim Mocks site. Open the link below and scroll down to:

Century Arms Inc

In the mid 1970's Century Arms imported thousands of M1 carbines from Germany that had served with German law enforcement agencies throughout the American Occupation Zones.

Between 1976-1979 many of the M1 carbines used by Germany were observed in the possession of various gun brokers in Switzerland. A source familiar with the normal procedures when the German government has had surplus weapons for sale indicates it is normal for the government to deal only with a German gun broker/gun brokers, from which the Swiss and other gun brokers and wholesalers would make their purchases. It appears Century Arms obtained the carbines from a large European gun broker, maybe more than one. Century Arms was not the only import/export firm to obtain the carbines that served in Germany.

At the time that Century Arms imported these carbines, they operated a second headquarters in St. Laurent, Quebec, Canada. Some of the weapons that they imported from abroad went to Canada first, and then were forwarded to their St. Albans facility. Century Arms sold to wholesalers in Canada. More than a few of these M1 carbines are owned by Canadians.

M1 carbines that were used in Germany and imported by Century Arms have a variety of unique markings, alterations, and replacement parts. Since this was not done by Century Arms, but the German agencies that used them, these are addressed on the pages devoted to the M1 carbines in Germany.

I've read that Erma Werke purchased surplus American manufacturing equipment for various M1 carbine parts. Most of their efforts had been servicing the weapons provided by the various Allied Forces. It's said they made replacement parts for the weapons already in use.


Did they make Swivels ? H3LL if I know... :confused:

U.S. Carbines in Germany and Austria

Thanks for sharing your carbine with us :thup:

Oh wow, that is great information! The guy I bought this carbine from shipped it to me from Quebec, so I guess this one didn’t travel far during it’s time in Canada. You don’t by chance happen to know the German website, do you? Sounds like there could be some valuable information there (if I can manage to read it lol). Thanks again for the info, I’m just glad I could share it with you guys and add to the vast knowledge available here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

A better close up (Macro) type picture might show if it is a commercial replacement.

---

Charlie, See if this helps. The swivel looks brand new to me. :surrender: - Bob

Hi Charlie, you're right I meant to say "swivel". I have an Underwood that has the swivel cleanly cut off. I believe it was a bring back that someone made into a hunting rifle. They replaced the sights and modified the stock by filling the sling slot. You may remember this Underwood from an article that Marcus submitted to the CC. It is an Underwood spring tube. I bought it on GB years ago for some early features and when I pick it up to my surprise it was a spring tube Underwood. There have only been two reported to the CC. It is thought that Underwood saved some receivers that had the spring channel drill run out and sent them over to Quality to have them converted to spring tubes. I lucked out on the sights. The rear sight was replaced with a Weaver that used an Allen screw to hold it in place, so no damage to the dovetail. The front sight was silver soldered on, so no damage there. Last part I need is that ever elusive swivel. Hope you are in a safe place and have a great weekend.

Best Regards.....Frank

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankderrico

I have an Underwood that has the swivel cleanly cut off. I believe it was a bring back that someone made into a hunting rifle.

---

Another with cut off swivel and hunting mods. I believe the same of this one.
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=69863&page=1

The swivel does appear to be a replacement, like the ones sold by `northint` on eBay.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5644F7F4-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...791A9BDF-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...235ADD85-1.jpg

Some pictures of the German markings on the metal parts, finally.

Tyler

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by painter777

I've read that Erma Werke purchased surplus American manufacturing equipment for various M1 carbine parts. Most of their efforts had been servicing the weapons provided by the various Allied Forces. It's said they made replacement parts for the weapons already in use.
Did they make Swivels ?

---

Hurrikane,
You prolly seen it....

I read on the Carbine Collectors Club site where Sleepless Jim Mock mentioned that:
" Erma Werke manufactured barrel bands and sling swivels for the West Germans. No identifying markings."
He wasn't sure if yours is one of these or if it's just a Commercial copy.
Stay tuned as he looks to see if he has a picture of one made by Erma.
Don't get your hopes up, IMO yours looks like a commercial one.
But it will be interesting to see if he finds something.

Here's a link with more pictures if any are interested, See reply by sleeplessnashadow :

Quality H.M.C. German Police (Close to Original) - The Carbine Collector's Club

I should add that the replacement I bought wasn't from Numrich but from (as mentioned by ncin1911) Northint on Ebay (Northridge Iternational).

Have a Good Weekend,

Barrel has a type 3 band shadow and band or at least swivel looks new.

---------- Post added at 06:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 PM ----------

well second look it looked like a different finish where band would be need better pic I may need new glasses/

The German's refurbished most of these guns before selling them.
Lever Arms bought mostly Winchester one's and slowly sold them. Then when the barrel restriction came in, had 20" barrels on the balance. They re barreling was done in Europe because there was lots of them and a few of the receivers cracked in the re barrel program
Century also got special edition Border Police Walther MPK and MPL 9mm smg's in green canvas carry cases, which contained three magazines. These guns were Safe Semi and Full. The military guns are Safe and Full. The guns were all in exc condition The one's I got probably didn't do anything but stay in the trunk of the car.