.303 Ball, South African

Good day all. I recently came into possession of a whack of .303 ball ammo, Berdan primed, headstamped U 60 MK7. I believe it to be South African, made in 1960. Some of the rounds are discoloured, I'm assuming from bad storage, but they don't look unsafe to shoot. We all know how hard it is now to find good milsurp ammo. In amongst the lot were some DA and DIZ (Boxer primed) and one lone DC16 round (WWI). I've been shooting Lee Enfields since before the Dead Sea was even sick, but I've not shot the SA stuff. My question for you guys is has anyone encountered this same ammo before? Though I value opinions, I'm more interested in actual experience with old ammo showing the same characteristics. IMHO, it's probably safe to shoot since for plinking ammo. I took the liberty of attaching a pic with a clean round in the middle. As you will note, some of the rounds are almost a copper colour.

They may have been handled, my hands will do that to brass...wouldn't worry about them. I'll bet these are as good as day one...

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

They may have been handled, my hands will do that to brass...wouldn't worry about them. I'll bet these are as good as day one...

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Some of them have verdigris on them, so for sure they've been exposed to damp conditions but I took that off with some very fine steel wool though the dark area where the oxidization was still remains. As I mentioned, I doubt that it'll affect function. I don't bother with the hassle of obtaining Berdan primers and trying to de-prime cases like these. I keep the brass in my scrap bin and when I've got about 50-60 lbs. of scrap, I take it to a scrapyard, get the money, and put it toward buying components.

That's what I do with much brass now also. We seem to be winding down for hoarding. I have two buckets ready to go now.

Photo of the headstamp would help.

Were it mine, I would shoot it through my LE without any concern, all of them.

However, I wouldn't do any fast shooting, rather aimed shots. Sometimes the 'click' and the 'whoom' just as you lift your head, or just the click. That ammo is 60 years old now, and you should expect a hang fire every now and then. Were it me I would shoot all of them as time allows me to.

I had about a hundred from 1957. Used them within the last 5 years, no issues.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Photo of the headstamp would help.

Were it mine, I would shoot it through my LE without any concern, all of them.

However, I wouldn't do any fast shooting, rather aimed shots. Sometimes the 'click' and the 'whoom' just as you lift your head, or just the click. That ammo is 60 years old now, and you should expect a hang fire every now and then. Were it me I would shoot all of them as time allows me to.

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I have wondered about British primers for a long time. It doesn't seem to matter which Commonwealth country loaded it, thirty year old Radway Green is as suspect as POF of equal vintage but click bang hangfires are not uncommon. I fired some 1963 vintage Mk VIIIz in Vickers belts and the gun had serious arrhythmia. On the other hand US and German ammo from WW2 invariably goes off like it was made last week. Greek .303 (HXP headstamp) has always been great, what did they know that Kynoch didn't? or is it just my imagination?

It depends on the loading, the factory and the vintage of the ammo.

If the .303 ammo has a .250", copper-coloured primer, it is mercuric AND corrosively primed AND, unless head stamped "Z", will be Cordite fueled.

If the primer is brass-coloured, it will be "Lead" based, may or may not be corrosive. and the completed round is filled with a granulated, "Nitro-Cellulose" propellants and marked with a "Z" code to indicate that.

Then it gets interesting, as noted in previous posts around here somewhere.

The FIRST. serious .303 ammo was BLACK_POWDER fueled. Except, like the .577-.450 Martini-Henry round before it, the "black powder" was not actually in powder form, but in a single, highly compressed "pellet".

And here is the start of the "fun" bits. Because of the size and shape of the "pellet", it could not be shoved into a formed and "necked" case. It was inserted when the case had been "neck-annealed" and primed, but was still "parallel-sided".

Once the pellet was inserted and topped with a "glaze-board" wad, the case was "partially formed", then the bullet was dropped onto the wad atop the "pellet" and only THEN was the final forming and "necking' preformed. Several "stab" crimps were applied to the side of the newly-formed neck to retain the bullet.

NOTE that the "cannelure" of a Mk 7 bullet sits nowhere near the front of the neck. This cannelure was formed to help retain the core in the bullet on impact AND to carry a bituminous material to "waterproof" the finished round.

With the change from Black Powder to "Cordite", the procedure remained essentially unchanged; delete BP pellet and insert a tied bundle of Cordite "sticks", essentially the same length as the old BP pellet. This method rolled on into the introduction of Mk7 ammo.

Where it varied was with the "contract" ammo suppliers. In both World Wars, the US makers and one Canadian "brand"; all used granular Nitro-Cellulose powders. Most of this ammo was also "corrosively" primed, but, using a LEAD-based compound. Most of this North American NC loaded stuff also used a "standard .210" BOXER primer. The ammo was assembled much as the manner familiar to reloaders around the planet, BUT on a spectacular scale. NO wad was used and there was neck tension and usually "stab" or other crimping to stop the bullet moving in the neck, especially in machine-guns.

The lack of "neck" annealing after final forming in the "traditional" British / Commonwealth process led, eventually, to cartridge cases on ammo in long-term storage developing stress cracks in the neck and shoulder region, on firing and even fresh out of the can.

Thank you, all of you, for your input and some fascinating historical perspective. I found a couple of guys who were looking for milsurp ball to feed their Lee Enfields and I've sold off all of the ammo I picked up. I plan to use the money to purchase components and work up plinking loads. My nephew has 2 almost pristine rifles, a 1918 BSA made SMLE and a 1950 Long Branch No.4, both of which have probably seen less than 200 rnds. through them. I want him to have a goodly stock of bullets and powder so he'll be able to feed the beasts long after I'm dust.

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Originally Posted by old tanker

Greek .303 (HXP headstamp) has always been great, what did they know that Kynoch didn't? or is it just my imagination?

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The Greek HXP 303 stuff is most likely from the stuff made for the MOD in the early 1980's for the cadet force who were still using the No.4, so its not even 40 years old.

If you have a bullet puller it may be worth your while to pull one apart and investigate the innards and propellant. Just costs you one round for peace of mind.

conguering the world requires quality ammunition that goes bang every time?

preserving the empire relies upon economic control, so low quality ammunition is acceptable. consctipted troops don't know any better.

CATASTROPHIC FAILURES!! One of the guys who bought that SA ball ammo contacted me and showed me pics of the fired brass. What a mess!! There's a bunch of FTF's and brass that is falling apart with huge flame-cut splitting, base separations, and assorted other defects. Bottom line, it's not safe to fire. I'm going to take it back. Since he needs ammo, I'll pull the projectiles out of the reject rounds and if they look good, I'll reload them into good brass with good powder and primers and replace the defective ones on a 1-for-1. From the looks of the brass, I think the rounds were in some sort of corrosive atmosphere that degraded the metal. The guy I got them off said he'd tumble cleaned the ammo and I'd read somewhere that tumbling loaded ammo can cause changes in the powder characteristics. Neither my brother nor I have ever seen that kind of disintegration of quality brass. I have a lot of IVI and DIZ brass primed and ready to go so I just have to make sure the actual bullets are OK and I'll use them.

The provenance of the cartridges is now important. It seems the cartridges might have been stored under suspicious circumstances. I have as recently as 2019 fired 1960 South African military 303 with no problems. Yes, you find people with such old cartridges every now and then.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

stored under suspicious circumstances.

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Originally Posted by lawrence_n

CATASTROPHIC FAILURES!!

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Agreed, sounds like ammo that was maybe stored under high heat and in sunlight...? The heat and cool factor will break ammo down very quickly, thus the directions given on storage and protection. Maybe Bombdoc can shed some light here?

Hi Guys,

Ok.. sounds like someone has been tumbling loaded ammunition!

The "copper wash" look is the result of dezincification.. the cases have been exposed to an oxidising atmosphere, both acid and alkali will do it, which has corroded the zinc out of the brass and left the copper. This is an indication of poor storage, and although not always a problem it points towards weak cases. The marking is not caused by handling as you would actually see defined marks, this has come from fumes..

Tumbling loaded ammunition is a SERIOUSLY bad thing to do. What happens is that the propellant grains break up, increasing the surface area and hence the burn rate. This leads to pressure spikes and all the associated over pressure consequences. It is a particular problem with old ammunition where the plasticisers in the propellant will have degraded and the structure has become brittle and shatters easily. The consequence is that the round behaves as if it is full of Bullseye!

Just to touch on the primers.. copper .303 primers are filled with ASA mix which contains Lead Azide and Potassium Chlorate. The reason for this is that it gave the ammunition a long shelf life and an ability to operate over a very wide range of temperatures. The lead however kills the brass and the Chlorate rusts your barrel.. this is fine if you only ever use the brass once and you have a shouty Sargent who will hit you if you do not clean your rifle!

Others Beware!

I would burn this ammunition on the spot, if only to stop anyone else using it! There is nothing wrong with SA ammunition which was made in properly run government factories, but this stuff is Old and from a part of the world that has been through lots of changes...

Just a point:

The big, 1/4" diameter, copper-cupped primers in much .303 ammo are MERCURIC FULMINATE based and, of course loaded with a lot of Chlorate salts to ensure the flash penetrates the tiny holes in the cartridge head and properly ignites the tied bundle of extruded Cordite. If you have .303 ammo with a standard-looking, brass-cupped "large rifle" (.210") primer and when you shake it, you can hear "powder moving", it will probably be relatively "new" (Winchester et al did a lot of .303 like this in BOTH world wars), and fueled by granulated Nitro Cellulose propellant. It may also be primed with .217" BERDAN non-mercuric primers, and filled with a granulated NC propellant, just to make things interesting. FN made vast quantities of this style Pre and Post WW2.

Treat ALL ammo, be it sporting or military with COPPER primer cups as MERCURIC-primed. Copper was used because the Mercury in the compound reacts with the zinc in brass and seriously embrittles it. This is clearly demonstrated by the slow but inexorable disintegration of FIRED cases fitted with Mercuric primers. The "liberated" Mercury vapour instantly bonds with the inside of the case and there is NO going back,

During "ignition", the Chlorate breaks down to Chloride salts and these, in the presence of even a tiny amount of atmospheric moisture, are what will eat your barrel. You wouldn't shake kitchen salt (Sodium Chloride) down your barrel and then put it in the safe for a few months, would you?

The other catch, as explained previously, is that Cordite-fueled .303 ammo is "made differently". Because the propellant is not in a granulated form but in a tied bundle of long "sticks", topped with a "stable" cardboard ('glazeboard") wad, it is inserted into the case BEFORE the final tapering operations. The bullet is then placed on top of that wad before the final "necking" operation secures it in place. Hence, there is NO final annealing of the neck for rather obvious reasons, so ALL of the stresses resulting from that necking operation cannot be relieved. The stuff may start to crack in its factory-sealed containers if not used within a reasonably short (a couple of decades, sometimes less) time.

Treat ALL ammo as if it were Chlorate doped and thus, corrosive; replacement barrels can be expensive or unobtainable. Good gun plumbers who know their Lee Enfields are priceless!

OK all, here's some pics of the failures. All the South African stuff is cordite loaded so I don't think tumbling compromised the propellant to any appreciable extent. I've started pulling the projectiles which may still be usable. On some of the cases I just pushed the bullet sideways and the case tore like tissue paper. Of the 35-40 rounds fired, 3 were hang fires, 13 FTF, 5 had cracked cases and 2 cases blew right apart.

Ok..

That is dezincification...!

The cases have been stored in conditions which have lead to the zinc component of the brass being leached out. It effectively weakens the structure of the brass making it brittle, resulting in case failure. The linear failure lines indicate that the rounds have been lying on a damp acidic surface and are typical of those from wet cardboard.

ANY evidence of tumbling of loaded ammunition is an indication that it is in a dangerous condition and should not be used. Aircraft ammunition subject to vibration suffers from the same risk and is given a restricted life for that reason.

Bruce's observations on mercuric and chlorate primers are also relevant, but in this case it is the state of the case material and the propellant that is the limiting factor.

As an Ammunition Technical Officer of over thirty years experience, my view is that this ammunition is not safe for use and should be destroyed..

I retract my previous statement that I would shoot it all. Definitely destroy, bullets will probably also be affected.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

I retract my previous statement that I would shoot it all. Definitely destroy, bullets will probably also be affected.

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Thank you all for your input. I've set up all the South African stuff for destruction. The projectiles themselves look pretty good for the most part and I'll use them in good brass. I dumped the cordite and burned it off piecemeal. What a shame, given how hard it is to find good .303 ball ammo nowadays.

I think that is very wise.. I also hate to destroy ammunition, but there comes a time!

Bullets should be OK. They are copper jacketed which does not suffer from the zinc problem!

You have a lot more courage than I lawrence_n. I've learned to stop when I don't get a satisfying bang. Glad you and your weapon weren't hurt. Here's some pictures of some Surplus Ball I pulled apart a week or two ago when I found some of the cases badly corroded. I pulled the bullets and drop the rest into a bucket of water. The AP on the left is Lake City 52. Base badly corroded but did not get inside. Irrelevant as AP stuff will get me in big time trouble so once soaked that all went in the trash. But the next one is Belgian and this too was pretty bad on the outside. Powder is fine. The Anyway, the point is if you have some sketchy surplus, pull it apart and see what you have. Heck just pull the bullets if that's all you get out of it. Better safe than wounded.
Sorry about the picture orientation, I don't know how to fix that yet.

Edited because I posted the wrong picture, the last is some LC ball from 1969.
Dang I must be tired. 2nd edit. The last is FN 69, not LC 69 for the sake of accuracy.