Canfield's book On US Military Shotguns

Just discovered the book the other day and ordered it. Two days later I have it in hand. Fascinating book.

Perhaps I just can't read it till the end, perhaps it is never answered but the big obvious question I have is: Is the United States the only major nation to use shotguns extensively in combat? I had no idea they were still being developed and used over in the Middle East today.

There was one small section where it mentioned France and England simply not having the same shotgun mentality that Americans have. To them it was a gun to shoot birds with. In the United States, we developed buckshot which was pretty much unknown to them.

But seeing the effectiveness, why was no effort made elsewhere. Even the Germans who apparently hated shotguns strongly enough to file an official complaint against their use didn't seem to develop any.

We used them since about Somalia. Not before as far as I've heard. I had a hard cover copy of that book now for some years and the soft cover it replaced was sent to a member here for his consumption. Yes, a priceless book for sure.

Being caught with a Mod-97 by the Germans in WWI brought your demise pretty quickly they despised them as they were very effective at trench sweeping along with stopping assaults once in effective range.
As one soldier put it "1 up the spout & 5 in the mag with 9 x 32 cal balls in each round they just caused havoc on the attackers"

Shotguns have a very specific use in war. Very close shooting.

However, successful shotgunning has to do with reloading. You can't replace five 30 shot rifle mags shooting automatic with the same number of shotgun shells, due to weight and size. Once past effective range the shotgunner has nothing to reply to rifle fire with.

You can't issue guards with shotguns when the opposition has many 30 shot mags firing automatic.

House clearance with 30 round 9mm mags makes much more sense. Etc

Having said that, let me say again, very effective when used correctly.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Being caught with a Mod-97 by the Germans in WWI brought your demise pretty quickly they despised them as they were very effective at trench sweeping along with stopping assaults once in effective range.
As one soldier put it "1 up the spout & 5 in the mag with 9 x 32 cal balls in each round they just caused havoc on the attackers"

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The German Gov't did protest the use of shotguns by American forces on the grounds that it was in violation of the Hague Convention and threatened to immediately execute any American soldier captured with a shotgun or shotgun ammunition.
U.S. Secretary of State Robert Lansings formal response to Germany's protest maintained that the shotgun used by the U.S. forces could not be the subject of legitimate or reasonable protest under the Hague Convention and if Germany made good on the threat to execute U.S. soldiers captured with shotguns or shotgun ammunition the U.S. would make whatever reprisals necessary to protect U.S. forces.
The German Gov't did not reply to Lansings letter and no Americans were known to have been executed for carrying shotguns or shotgun ammunition.

Apparently, the guy on point in Vietnam often had a shotgun. They are using them today in urban warfare and house cleaning. Pretty wild looking things today. The old pumps are gone. Plastic, collapsible stocks, etc. Still have the bayonet lug for the M9 now I believe.

Cartridge weight and size, and reloading are the main challenges.

Sending a shotgunner against a rifleman with a rifle that goes brrrt is not good.

The AA-12 although an old outdated design had some pretty impressive rounds especialy the one that was like a mini 40mm boop round inside a room would definately spoil the BBRRRT gunners day.
A full auto shotgun inside a house with explosive rounds now that would be devastating for both I reckon.
YouTube

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Cartridge weight and size, and reloading are the main challenges.

Sending a shotgunner against a rifleman with a rifle that goes brrrt is not good.

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A good friend of mine served in Vietnam in an armored unit. Shortly after arriving in country he was assigned to an infantry outfit as a liaison officer. He being a country boy from South Georgia that grew up bird hunting swapped his M16 for a Winchester Model 12 trenchie and carried it for the rest of his tour. According to him, it worked quite well against little guys in black pajammies firing rifles that went brrrt.

I would hate to be in a spot where i had to reload in a hurry, it takes a lot more time to put 5 shells in a pump shotgun then to stick a mag in a M16

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Originally Posted by rice 123

it takes a lot more time to put 5 shells in a pump shotgun

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Agreed but the doctrine is to load as you consume so you don't run out like that, use a couple and top up. That's if possible. If you go through them, you do learn how to thumb them in quickly, trust me. Not like changing a mag but I've seen mag change fumbles too.

Canfields book had a lot of interesting information on the substitution of shotguns for MP and guard purposes in early WWII, as the supply of rifles was quite short.

The US government had open purchase orders for used shotguns. 12 Gauges went to State Guard units and 16 gauges went to the Coast Guard shore patrols, which I gather patrolled the shore in the 42 time frame when the U-boats were sinking a lot of vessels off the cost of the US.

In any case my copy of the book helped a fired of mine, he bought very cheaply a Remington model 11, to cut down and make into a sort of gangster period piece. It was kind or rough and seemingly had no value. checked the barrel date and it had two marks, one from 1928 when made and it was factory redone in March of 1942 (or sometime close, working from recollections). Yup, it was likely a state guard gun, as the factory overhauls were mentioned in his book. Gun was saved because of that book.

Well worth the price, I found the book to be very interesting.

One added tidbit. A few surplus lots of state owned National Guard marked shotguns sold here in the last decade (Arizona, Ohio, Kansas) . Seems all were purchased in the 1968 time frame. While it is not in his book, it seems from folks back then that the federal regulations concerning the storage and issue for Federal full auto rifles (such as M16 rifles just making their way to the National Guard in 1970) meant is was easier for the states to buy and issue shotguns for Gate Guards/ internal security duties. I gather that was fixed by 1970/71 so they did not see a lot of use.

In any case that one area not covered in his book.