Type 99 Range Report

Finally got the "new to me" long rifle to the range. Made a box of handloads using IMR4895 varying from 43 to 45.5 grains pushing 150 grain Speer softpoints. The best group was the 45 grain group measuring about 1.5 inches at 50 yds.

I did notice though that there seemed to be a fair amount of soot on the cases. I don't see any signs of bulging or splitting anywhere. The primers don't seem to be popping or flattened.

This is my first Japanese rifle and I haven't seen sooted cases like this on my other rifles, so I'm curious if there is an issue with the chamber or headspace. It did seem to get better as the loads got heavier.

Attachment 109602Attachment 109601Attachment 109600

Two likely causes of sooty cases -
1. Pressure too low to expand cases fully.
2. Brass too hard in neck/shoulder; needs annealing. (Not uncommon with PPU brand.)

Nothing in photos indicates chamber/headspace problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Two likely causes of sooty cases -
1. Pressure too low to expand cases fully.
2. Brass too hard in neck/shoulder; needs annealing. (Not uncommon with PPU brand.)

Nothing in photos indicates chamber/headspace problem.

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My load table says the max load for my combination is 48 grains. The closest I got was 45.5. Yesterday I built up from 46 to 48 in half grain increments. I'll give them a try and see what happens.

I did notice that there were three cases that were significantly more bulged at the head than the others when I ran them back through the FL resizer die. Took a little more effort to get the ram down.

Hello, I found your thread by chance and would like to know what your latest range results for your T99 currently is.

I started shooting test loads in my T99 again and would like to share information with you.

My first tests used Speer 150gr SP .311 bullets and resized military brass. The initial brass was sooty but by just neck sizing the fireformed brass, the cases were less so. My accuracy at 50 yards was the same as yours, about 1-1/2" at 50 yards. I forgot which powder I used but I think it was the same powder.

I slugged my barrel and it came out to .3115". Hornady .312 bullets shoot better groups than the .311 Speer bullets. The heavier 174grain bullets were more accurate than the 150grain bullets. I tried the Barnes .311 TTX bullets and results were ok. Woodleigh has a .312 all copper bullet I might try if I can't find a Hornady GMX .312" bullet. I use Reloader 15 and 19.

Not so often you see a range report on a Japanese rifle, so this is interesting. Yes, seems to be a bit of gas blow-by causing sooting... Primers are also a bit rounded at the back so pressures aren't up to flatten them like regular pressures do.

I have loaded some others up to 48 grains but havent shot them yet to see the difference.

These are .30-06 cases? Or PPU 7.7mm cases. I shot my 7.7mm Type 99 with PPU cases and no trouble to report. It was an very early (1939/40) Hiroshima gun and near mint. Very well made, as well.

Very interesting indeed, thanks for sharing.

I did not know there was that much interest in the test shooting of Arisaka's . I have load tested my over 250 Type 99 rifles and 80 ish Type 30's and 38's . With the 6.5 rifles I have many that show great accuracy and have won matches with some . I once shot an original Type 97 as a 2nd rifle in a national Benchrest match . I did a five shot group average with 5 targets of 0.875 and a best group of 0.63 . Type -99's are not inaccurate as a rifle , but are hard to get a good group average with the large peep sight . I can cut my groups in half with a small hole clip on aperture for the rear sight . 6.5mm rifle are all over the board on what bullet and load they like depending on bore size and what type barrel they have on them . The 7.7mm's seem to fall into two groups , chrome bores and non-chrome . In most 7.7mm rifles the Hornady .312 150 sp in the best bullet , the .312 174 rn will help with some really large bore rifles . Speer bullets are bad and the Sierra's are just ok . With the chrome rifles it seems the faster you shoot them the better they shoot .

---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

Also for the OP . Type -99's have large to extra large chambers and PPU cases are too small , plus dies make the case too small . You can see the soot ring around the case head where it was too small to seal and did not expand enough . Neck sizing fired cases with a 7.62x54r die will help .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calif-Steve

These are .30-06 cases? Or PPU 7.7mm cases. I shot my 7.7mm Type 99 with PPU cases and no trouble to report. It was an very early (1939/40) Hiroshima gun and near mint. Very well made, as well.

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Not 30.06 cases. PPU 7.7.

---------- Post added at 10:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:51 AM ----------

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob q

I did not know there was that much interest in the test shooting of Arisaka's . I have load tested my over 250 Type 99 rifles and 80 ish Type 30's and 38's . With the 6.5 rifles I have many that show great accuracy and have won matches with some . I once shot an original Type 97 as a 2nd rifle in a national Benchrest match . I did a five shot group average with 5 targets of 0.875 and a best group of 0.63 . Type -99's are not inaccurate as a rifle , but are hard to get a good group average with the large peep sight . I can cut my groups in half with a small hole clip on aperture for the rear sight . 6.5mm rifle are all over the board on what bullet and load they like depending on bore size and what type barrel they have on them . The 7.7mm's seem to fall into two groups , chrome bores and non-chrome . In most 7.7mm rifles the Hornady .312 150 sp in the best bullet , the .312 174 rn will help with some really large bore rifles . Speer bullets are bad and the Sierra's are just ok . With the chrome rifles it seems the faster you shoot them the better they shoot .

---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

Also for the OP . Type -99's have large to extra large chambers and PPU cases are too small , plus dies make the case too small . You can see the soot ring around the case head where it was too small to seal and did not expand enough . Neck sizing fired cases with a 7.62x54r die will help .

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I have never neck sized any brass. I only have full length dies. I have heard that you can neck size with a FL die. Is that true, and if so how do you do it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jet Fixer

I have heard that you can neck size with a FL die.

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You're just not FL sizing. Just turn the die out so the neck is done, probably half way or a bit more. You'll see how it goes by checking and then tightening a bit, until you have most of the neck but no case wall. Lube the whole thing just in case.

If you only have one Type 99 then neck size for sure. Turn your sizing die back maybe 1/2 turn to a full turn. Try it slowly to find the beat setting. I neck size all of my .30-40 brass.

Many Type -99 rifles have enough swell at the base and even the shoulder and the dies are so small to begin with a FL die turned out will still size the case body . A big 7.62x54r die will not touch anything but the neck with 7.7 cases .

This is how I neck size. I rub Imperial Die Wax on the neck. I raise my case and screw the FL die down until it contacts the case, then lower the die down a little and size a part of the neck. I can see the wax being rubbed off. I repeat the same procedure until the neck is sized almost to the shoulder. Then, I lock the FL die in place.

The diameter of my 7.7 Arisaka fireformed brass is too wide for the current RCBS FL dies I am using. Notice the photo of a resized 30-06 military case before I shortened the neck and a fireformed case. Here, I use a custom Lee 7.7 Arisaka collet die. It works well but I am considering having a custom FL die cut to resize brass to match the chamber.Attachment 115100

Here is some information that outlines my journey so far with my T99 Arisaka ( Nagoya ).

As mentioned in an earlier posted, I started with Speer -150 bullets with 4895. If I didn't come across this attached table in Ken Waters' Petload book, I might have tried IMR 4320 because the .303 Enfield crowd has good luck with it. Using this table and the attached article, I chose Reloader 15 and 19.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...bers-tell-all/


Attachment 115101

I am not including my ladder test photos. Here is the most promising load I have so far using a Hornady 174gr FMJBT, Norma Brass, WLR, and 45.3gr R15. Notice Ken Waters' 45.2gr N203/ R15 petload.

Attachment 115102

The three hit cluster near the fore-end of the rifle is at 200 yards and the cluster near the trigger guard are groups at 100 yard. I'll try and do better and avoid flyers next time.

I examine my cartridges for concentricity too.

Attachment 115103

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob q

A big 7.62x54r die will not touch anything but the neck with 7.7 cases .

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Way better idea and easy to find dies.

I like this idea too for just neck sizing. I wonder what runout you would get. And, I wonder if the die will still clear a fireformed Arisaka case. Can someone send me the resized outside diameter of the 7.62x54r case near the neck. I'd like to compare that to my fireformed case.

I'm thinking that if you use the 7.62x54r FL sizing die to resize the neck, you have a neck sized for .309" bullet and not a .311 or .312. A neck expander will need to be used. For my cast .3125"lead bullets, an option might be a 32 caliber expander for a pistol die that measures .312"-.314". I'll sand the plug to the proper diameter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BJung

a neck sized for .309" bullet and not a .311 or .312.

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Expander balls in all sizes are available, if you're using RCBS dies that is. Just change it...

All the 7.62x54r dies I have came with .311 , including the cheap Lee die that I use for 7.7mm neck sizing .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bob q

I did not know there was that much interest in the test shooting of Arisaka's . I have load tested my over 250 Type 99 rifles and 80 ish Type 30's and 38's . With the 6.5 rifles I have many that show great accuracy and have won matches with some . I once shot an original Type 97 as a 2nd rifle in a national Benchrest match . I did a five shot group average with 5 targets of 0.875 and a best group of 0.63 . Type -99's are not inaccurate as a rifle , but are hard to get a good group average with the large peep sight . I can cut my groups in half with a small hole clip on aperture for the rear sight . 6.5mm rifle are all over the board on what bullet and load they like depending on bore size and what type barrel they have on them . The 7.7mm's seem to fall into two groups , chrome bores and non-chrome . In most 7.7mm rifles the Hornady .312 150 sp in the best bullet , the .312 174 rn will help with some really large bore rifles . Speer bullets are bad and the Sierra's are just ok . With the chrome rifles it seems the faster you shoot them the better they shoot .

---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:06 PM ----------

Also for the OP . Type -99's have large to extra large chambers and PPU cases are too small , plus dies make the case too small . You can see the soot ring around the case head where it was too small to seal and did not expand enough . Neck sizing fired cases with a 7.62x54r die will help .

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bob q, Can you share some of your favorite loads with us? I'd like to know what other field tests were like. I'd love to visit you someday. I've seen all those nice pig hunting videos in Texas and I want to try a cast lead bullet for hunting. CA made hunting with lead bullets illegal.

The 7.7mm is not too finicky about powder . Any powder around the burning rate of I-4064 is good . My best bullet is the Hornady .312 150 sp . About 43.0 to 46.0 of I-4064 is a good place to start . The chrome bores do not tent to shoot cast as well as the non-chrome bores do . I do a lot of pig hunting here in Texas . Just got off the phone with a buddy who is hunting a 184,000 acre ranch and has got 5 so far today , in the snow . A cast bullet would be ok for the smaller pigs , but any over 200 lbs tend to get hard to knock down . Shot through the heart without a really hard hitting caliber , a big pig can still run a couple of hundred yards . Head shots work best . My best day at my ranch was 14 in one day , two over 250 lbs .

Must come over...

You could start with my 35 cal Carcano . It's pig count is well over a ton . 250 or 275 grain rn bullet at about 2200 fps . That does put the big ones down quick . Depending on your recoil tolerance , you could try the 500 Bandit . 50 cal 500 grain bullet at 2300 fps . I have another beast rifle , 900 grain bullet . Spring is best . If you really want to come over they are having the Sweetwater rattle snake round up March 12th - 14th and it is only 30 min from my place .

I found a use for the Speer 7.7-150gr SPs didn't group well with my Arisaka by shooting it through my sks

It is a big party . There is also a gun show . I have always done well at the gun show as it is a big local event and lots of locals bring stuff from their closets to sell at the show . Lots of venders , cookouts . Everything you can think of with the snakes , they milk a bunch and it is a major source for anti-venom . It does bring in a lot of people from Europe , it is a real WEST Texas event . They have a rare M-103 heavy tank at the park .

I will add this last post as a reference for future T99 Arisaka Shooters until I return to the shooting range again. I was not sure where my POI would be using the military sights. I shot at 100/200/200 yards using the 100/200/300 marks on the sights. My POI results was 1" high and 1" to the left for 100 yards, 1" high and 4" to the left for 200 yards, and around 0" and 12" to the left for 300 yards using 7.7-174gr Hornady FMJ bullets. In other words, I was hitting paper and not missing the target.

My friend ended up with 16 hogs on his hunt . Back to 7.7mm . What maker and series is your rifle ? The early rifles are usually pretty close to the sights but by late war they can be so far off you would miss a man a 200 yards . Also every late rifle I have the front sights were never zeroed , still in the exact center .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BJung

Hello, I found your thread by chance and would like to know what your latest range results for your T99 currently is.

I started shooting test loads in my T99 again and would like to share information with you.

My first tests used Speer 150gr SP .311 bullets and resized military brass. The initial brass was sooty but by just neck sizing the fireformed brass, the cases were less so. My accuracy at 50 yards was the same as yours, about 1-1/2" at 50 yards. I forgot which powder I used but I think it was the same powder.

I slugged my barrel and it came out to .3115". Hornady .312 bullets shoot better groups than the .311 Speer bullets. The heavier 174grain bullets were more accurate than the 150grain bullets. I tried the Barnes .311 TTX bullets and results were ok. Woodleigh has a .312 all copper bullet I might try if I can't find a Hornady GMX .312" bullet. I use Reloader 15 and 19.

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1-1/2" at 50 yards is a good job, keep it up and thanks for sharing you report with us. Very helpful.