No.1 Nk3 trigger work. Where to start.

Took a previously unfired (by me) 1917 BSA No.1 Mk3* to the range today.
It has been re-parkerized and also has a Canadian Arsenals C / arrow stamp. I am not sure if those two are related. Bolt is pretty stiff to close.

The first stage of the trigger seems fine - trigger moves back about an 8th of an inch after the first resistance is felt and the cocking piece minimally moves. THEN it becomes a battle to pull the trigger. To fire the pull is the toughest I've ever had to deal with, The trigger moves a full 1/4 of an inch and the cocking piece moves back a 1/16" or so before the break.

I'll need to do something to fix it - just wondering where to start to work through it logically.

Quite a bit on these triggers has been posted in various threads and in formal articles like the many by Peter Laidler.

EVERY part of the system has to be in good condition; not "modified, distorted, wobbly, etc before you can assess further.

The mounting of the trigger on the trigger-guard is a bit of a nuisance, but not insurmountable.

The "full bent" (front face of the cocking piece) must be perfectly flat and at the correct angle. If someone has "polished" it and made the face more "vertical" or even past vertical to a reverse angle, the trigger pull will be horrendous. There is no coming back if this has happened; for two reasons The hardened skin of the steel at this point is relatively thin; grinding it the wrong way, then grinding it again to correct that and you have just altered the vital interaction between the cocking-piece, bolt body and the safety catch.

The two "bumps" on the front face of the top half of the trigger must NOT be modified apart from the removal of a couple of microns of surface coating so that there is no odd "drag" as the trigger acts on the lower arm of the sear. And, there is more.

If you do not have a Lee-Enfield-savvy gunsmith within reasonable distance, check around here. I suspect that I live on the wrong side of the planet to pop over for a look one afternoon.

Be careful if you go shopping for "spare" parts. The only way to go is with new, previously-unfitted parts. Otherwise you may be chasing your tail because the pre-loved bits from scrapped rifles may also be worn (or "bubba-ed") beyond tolerances.

I have a pretty good stash of spare parts in their original boxes that I have been collecting over the past 20 years or so. Not certain as I'll have to look in a crate but I think I have all the parts needed to replace any that need it. I'll now need to search the forum for Peter's articles and read them in depth this time, having only scanned previously as I was happy with the triggers on my rifles. I actually took a bunch of rifles out that I hadn't fired before today - the surprise package was a horrible looking 1986 No.1 Mk.3 made at Ishapore which was as smooth as silk and put up about a 1 inch 5 shot group - only at 50 yards, but very acceptable nevertheless.

Read through one of Peter's articles - what is have is clearly a "dragging pull". Off to get a fine whetsone and a micrometer to be able to solve the problem slowly and carefully.

AAh knackers!! Took the rifle apart to start work. The draws are in a state of disintegration and the part in contact with he buttsocket has been bodged with fibreglass or epoxy or something and the forened is done for. The trigger has had both ribs trimmed and naturally the new sears I have turned out to be for the No.4 and I have no more triggers. I ordered 4 triggers from liberty tree, but does anyone have a solid source in the USA for a No.1 forend and No.1 sears as New Old Stock.

Just grind the bedding out of the forend with a dreamil and do a repair on the draws it’s worth repairing even if you have to rebed it if you get stuck for trigger Sears I might be able to help

I noticed that the fore end did NOT actually contact the butt socket and thus I was all for scrapping. However, I have since read Peter's article again and no I think that this is likely to be
because the draws did not act correctly and draw the fore end up onto the butt socket as they are supposed to do. I honestly think this sort of thing is beyond me but the overall fore end is a lovely piece of walnut so it's worth at least trying. I ASSUME that the No.1 sear is different from the No.4 sear right?

Charlie,

Buy one of the 1943 Canadian Ordnance Corps "Extracts from Instructions for Armourers". I found a few more copies in my gun show inventory a couple of months ago and when they're gone, they're gone. I've preached and preached about the value of this booklet along with other pubs for setting up triggers, sears, forends, gauging standards, etc. It's all there along with much, much more. With books like it and Peter's articles, there's nothing that can't be sorted out. Your original forend needs the draws chiseled out, blocked up with oak and refitted. I also have hundreds of sears, triggers, and most other metal parts available here for the SMLE if in need.

Brian

One other thing:

I understand that the "geometry" of the trigger system did NOT change with the adoption of the No4. I have fitted No1 (groovy) triggers to No4s and they work fine. If you lay a No 1 cocking-piece alongside a No4 item, all the critical engagement surfaces are in the same place.

The No1 sear looks different, but the working surfaces are all pretty much in the same place.

There was no point in re-inventing a perfectly good trigger geometry in the model transition.

I'm told, but have never tried it, that the striker/cocking-piece assembly is interchangeable, but only AS AN ASSEMBLY (because the threads are different). The striker spring is IDENTICAL and carried the same part number.

Given that the No4 was not a "blank sheet" design, but a development of the No1, via the Mk V, Mk Vl and trials variations, all this makes some sort of sense.

These were not the days of CNC and CMM.

Forget about triggerjob before you have repaired
Your foreend and have it set up correctly.
Then go to peters articles about bolt set up
Specially about straight fireingpin and
Alignment and securing of the cooking piece.
First then it is time for set up the rest of
The trigger group.

Jsne

I have a question for the armourer's.
When you redress the contact face of the cocking piece; for example to remove some wear in the face. Do you case harden the surface after correcting it?
If so; what method do you use?

Although this is about a No.4 trigger, it may be useful. ;)

With thanks to Advisory Panel member Peter Laidler, check his article presented in two parts in the Technical Articles for Milsurp Collectors and Re-loaders (click here).

"The Trigger Pull-Off" - Part 1 (By Peter Laidler) (click here)

"The Trigger Pull-Off" - Part 2 (By Peter Laidler) (click here)


This interesting article is accompanied by a detailed photo montage of a previously damaged skeletonised No.4(T) rifle, used as a training piece for budding Armourers to learn with and develop their skills. As Peter says "It appeared that this ‘rifle’ had never been finished as a ‘T’ as the front pad hole had not been drilled. During bead blasting after a hard life as a skeletonised rifle, it was established that the screw had sheared off and simply been made off level. Drilled out and extracted, it’s back to its former self. Waste not, want not as they say…". Other photos in the article show the clear interaction of the sear, cocking piece and trigger during various phases of its operation.

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Article Extract .....

Pictorially, this shows the trigger at the end of the first pull, both ribs touching the trigger bent or flat of the sear with the sear nose at the extreme edge of the cocking piece………, just ready for the off.

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...s/DSCF0156.JPG
(Click PIC to Enlarge)

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Regards,
Doug

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

The two "bumps" on the front face of the top half of the trigger must NOT be modified apart from the removal of a couple of microns of surface coating so that there is no odd "drag" as the trigger acts on the lower arm of the sear. . .

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This piece of advice seems at odds with Capt. Laidler's -
". . . to achieve the same aim of a perfect first and second pull. Well, whatever your views, you can only achieve it constantly in this way, that is by stoning the upper or lower trigger ribs."

See more at http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?...ter-Laidler%29

Attachment 110194The plot thickens over here. Unlike the rest of My No.1s the cocking piece does not sit flush with the bolt body and is almost a 16th lower - as you can see in the photo here. The result (OR cause) of this is the cocking piece hits the top of the butt socket where it meets the buttstock when the bolt is worked. The cocking piece CAN be pushed up almost to the bolt but springs down again. In itself that's a bit further the sear has to travel before it releases the cocking piece so that wont be helping any either. Just about to dive into Peter's articles again to learn more about angles cocking pieces etc etc . I guess I've got a larger project on my hands than I thought:)

Regarding the "stoning" of the two ribs on the trigger: What I was taught was that it was to be more of a "polish" than a "grind". The trick is to carefully improve the surface grade without significantly altering the dimensions. I usually smooth the driven flat on the lower leg of the sear by gently polishing it with a fine-grade "Eze-Lap" "Diamond stick" With the sear held in a vise with the work surface just clear of the soft jaws, the diamond encrusted plate is worked ALONG the length of the surface. If you want to be extra fussy, use engineers layout-blue after every few strokes. When that is dry, the next pass of the diamonds will reveal any remaining high spots. re-coat and repeat. As soon as all the blue is removed with a light pass of a fine lap, STOP. If you have to start seriously attacking these surfaces, it is more than likely that the sear, for starters, is out of whack.

Most certainly, the fore-end must be correctly fitted; this is essential for several reasons:

Unless the draws correctly engage the body, and, be they capped or adjusted with copper or brass hims, or hardwood blocks, glued, screwed or both, there is not much point in going further. if the barrel channel is not precisely aligned with the barrel, ditto.

Until we got to the No4 Mk 2, the trigger was hung on the trigger-guard. Unless THAT whole relationship was within the standards, any subsequent actions would be "interesting". See also the bit about "adjusting" the "collar, trigger-guard screw". There was a special armourers "combination tool / gauge for that ONE task. Not likely to be found in the tool-bag of a front-line armourer in the trenches, but definitely in field and base workshops where the rebuilt the splintered wrecks recovered from the trenches and surrounding battlefield. Bends and warps in the trigger-guard itself can do odd things to the set-up as well. Definitely not a "shake and bake" rifle.

When originally assembled at the factory or rebuilt in a major service workshop, there was an amazing array of gauges and gizmos for assessing parts and setting up and testing assemblies. There are probably few private individuals on the planet with more than a fraction of what is really required to do the whole job "by the book". Look for the old photos of the veritable mountains of gauges and tools used during the building of a SMLE.

About the only original armourers tools from those days, in my possession, are a couple of variations of the brass-bodied trigger-pull spring gauges, the barrel vise-blocks part of the re-barreling "vise and clamp" kit and several of the big, universal, wooden-handled screwdrivers.

From Peter's Article (Part 2) on the trigger pull off. "First, I want you to run a steel rule or straightedge along the top edge of the trigger-less trigger guard. It must be flat and not warped"

How long must it be flat for?? From forward of the Trigger guard screw or form behind it? and how far back? just to the trigger pivot pin??

I have redone the odd rehardening using Kasenite. But if you have taken more than a thou off the surface, you will begin to experience excessive drag as the sear pushes the bent back.

I have read Peters articles on triggers and draws repair many times over now and have a multitude of questions:
1. The draws angle is 74 degrees - is this cut to 74 degrees before fitting the patch or chiseled out afterwards? is there a tool that was made for this or was it just chiselled out so it matched the reciever?
2. Why would the cocking piece be pushed away from the bolt and hit the buttsocket? Maybe a bent firing pin?
3. As per post above : From Peter's Article (Part 2) on the trigger pull off. "First, I want you to run a steel rule or straightedge along the top edge of the trigger-less trigger guard. It must be flat and not warped" How long must it be flat for?? From forward of the Trigger guard screw or form behind it? and how far back? just to the trigger pivot pin??

sorry about all the questions there are zero enfield gunsmiths round here and I can't help feeling that I'm biting off more than I can chew and will screw up the rifle.

1. I always cut the angle on the block before I glue it in. Obviously leave it proud so that you can fit it tight by carefully shaving it down with a sharp chisel.
2. The body may be worn out. I doubt it's a bent firing pin but could be wrong. If the bolt runway is oversize, the slop it can create will affect a few things. Check the left hand locking lug to see if the sear is dragging on the bottom side. It'll be a noticeable drag mark.
3. The trigger guard must be flat from front to back. I lay them on a piece of plate glass to check them. It should also lay flat into the inletting in the forend with no "spring" required to start the rear trigger guard screw. Anyone who tells you to bend the trigger guard to adjust the pull-off has no business working LE rifles.

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Originally Posted by newcastle

sorry about all the questions there are zero enfield gunsmiths round here and I can't help feeling that I'm biting off more than I can chew and will screw up the rifle.

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You can always save the worry and possible errors and just ship it to Brian Dick at BDL Ltd in Edgefield SC. He'll doctor it and return it as good as new. He's available on this site... PM him... https://www.milsurps.com/member.php?u=2818

newcastle, have you checked to see if the cocking piece thread is loose on the firing pin? I don't mean unwound; but maybe a worn thread so there is unwanted movement. That will cause possible trigger issues.
I had this issue with my No1 MkIII*. So I followed Peter's advice and tinned the firing pin thread with solder. While it's still molten, use a soft wire brush to remove excess solder.
Refitting the cocking piece will be a good tight fit on the threads; removing any slop and improving the trigger's regularity.

Is the long thin bit of the cocking piece supposed to be parallel with the firing pin when it is screwed in? I assume it is. I have just attached a couple of spare cocking pieces to this firing pin to test and with each one the firing pin is not parallel and diverges from the CP when the cut out for the screw is aligned correctly. If not aligned correctly and 180 degrees off, the pin and the cocking piece converge slightly.
I reassembled the original bolt and worked it with the 180 degrees out and the CP does not hit the buttsocket. I must conclude that the Firing pin is in indeed not straight. I suspect that along the line this rifle was shoved back together just to move it on and I've ended up with it so this'll be fun and an education to try to put it back into correct condition.

The old "bent striker in the SMLE trick". That will certainly cause mischief.

Also remember that thread on the tail of the striker is there to stop it escaping. The precision-ground parallel immediately forward of that thread is the key to how rigidly it is attached to the cocking piece. The dimensions (and tolerances on teh 1/4 inch hole in the cocking piece and the diameter of the striker are such that it is a VERY close fit and this keep them from "wobbling".

Attachment 110497Attachment 110498Attachment 110499OK so the update here. I've straightened the trigger guard (was bent), replaced the sear (original bent) and trigger (original filed down) and replaced the draws with oak per Laidler instructions, strengthened with wooden pins in from the left and right of the foreend. There was an existing threaded brass rod through the rear of wood which I elected to keep though it made the operation more complicated. Some photo's attached (though I forgot to take final pics). Rifle now has a two stage trigger with no long pull to fire, and no gap between foreend and buttsocket.

Now I just need a straight striker which I need to get from BDL and to stain the ends of the wooden pins and finish the wood.

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Originally Posted by newcastle

threaded brass rod

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You know that stuff is available, right? Bet some of these guys have a couple around too. It's done now though...