My 1944 No.4 T Sniper rifle

I was told this is where the T-sniper gurus hang out?

I purchased this rifle a few months back, traded a CMP garand and some cash for it to an acquaintance. He inherited it from his father who bought it in the early 1960's from a neighbor. Rifle has no import marks on it so it must have been in the country for a while. Ill let the pictures do the talking. From what i see it looks to be correct as it would have been issued in WW2? What is the ballpark value of this example (i have no intention of selling, just for my info)

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6aa43c_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...246faf_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...476ee0_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...0fe841_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...247f13_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...889d31_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ca15d4_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...4b64a2_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d32687_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...5d109d_b-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...99faec_c-1.jpg

You have one of the nicest most honest BSA Shirley No4 T's that I've seen on here in a long time. As regards value, I will keep out of it as I am in the UK not the US, but it is worth money whatever country you're in. Thank you for letting us see it.

Incidentally, it has one of the very lowest serial numbered Mk3 scopes on it, only just after the transition from the Mk2 scope.....

Echo what Roger says........that's a wonderful example... :clap:

Do you have the transit chest and contents such as scope tin etc as well, or just the rifle?

Someone on an Enfield FB page said that the scope number on the wrist is questionable because it’s placed too far back? Said they didn’t leave H&H like that and maybe the scope was added later?

Sadly no, no transport chest or other accessories . what you see here is what i have.

Really wonderful. And great looking woods at that!

JT76 the scope number is fine. You have a peach of a rifle. Some people are so keen to see problems they see things that aren't there......

There is considerable variation in the precise positioning of the scope serial number just behind the cocking piece. Likewise with other markings such as the S51, but this is not surprising as they were stamped by hand in a hurry. Also, if the rifle had originally been assembled as a 'less telescope' rifle, it is unlikely to have been stamped with the body side wall T, which is clearly there for all to see. Don't fret about your rifle, it's a belter!

P.S. If you'd like a little more reassurance try removing the butt from the butt socket & have a look at the rifle serial number stamped into the usually hidden part at the very front. I would be exceedingly surprised if it is anything other than the number of your rifle.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

JT76 the scope number is fine. You have a peach of a rifle. Some people are so keen to see problems they see things that aren't there......

There is considerable variation in the precise positioning of the scope serial number just behind the cocking piece. Likewise with other markings such as the S51, but this is not surprising as they were stamped by hand in a hurry. Also, if the rifle had originally been assembled as a 'less telescope' rifle, it is unlikely to have been stamped with the body side wall T, which is clearly there for all to see. Don't fret about your rifle, it's a belter!

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Exactly.

People are too quick to forget that there was a war on........and slight variations abound with everything. H&H were in London, and this rifle's conversion at H&H dates put this firmly in the one of the peak of the V-1 flying bomb campaign, so no doubt much to-ing and fro-ing from shelters were the name of the game during the late summer and through the autumn of 1944, when this rifle was converted at H&H.

I never thought about the aspect of London basically being under siege. Very cool history.

I had to look up what a belter was 🤣

Great rifle there, and perhaps I will stick my neck out and say somewhere in the £4500-£5000 GBP pounds range, but if you have any provenance, that could go further.
As Roger says, I would not argue with that if it donned my hands, lovely piece and thanks for the images which to me confirms a genuine piece alround regardless what certain people have told you..........they are simply splitting hairs, it was busy times and things sometimes didn't go to plan.
Enjoy!

Sling?

Your AK & S is 207 later than mine on my 1944 M47C & AK & S 16684 judging from the wrist it may have been sanded a little but who knows its a very nice weapon and worth hanging on to the CES kits and transport cases are hard to come by I've given up as it would cost to much and years of trolling the web for genuine and then its still a put together.
I have purchased a repro scope tin and a correct 3 draw telescope & leather carrying pouch but stopped as WWII CES kit bits do not come up often and empty your wallet quicker than a hooker on Boogie Street.

They don’t come better than that! All original. Great score.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Great rifle there, and perhaps I will stick my neck out and say somewhere in the £4500-£5000 GBP pounds range, but if you have any provenance, that could go further.
As Roger says, I would not argue with that if it donned my hands, lovely piece and thanks for the images which to me confirms a genuine piece alround regardless what certain people have told you..........they are simply splitting hairs, it was busy times and things sometimes didn't go to plan.
Enjoy!

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Wow thats a lot of money in Yankee greenbacks!

The only provenance i have is that it was purchased by my friend's father from a farmer in Appleton NY in the early 1960's...that and $2 will probably get me a coffee :lol:

Seems most of these are import marked in some way, either at the muzzle or the old style of just "ENGLAND" stamped in the receiver. This has no such marks anywhere on it. I would highly doubt this came home in some GI's barracks bag? Any idea when the British started to surplus these to the US? Im also only a few miles from the Canadian border, could have been in Canada and made its way across the Niagara river (it has no Canadian ownership marks though)

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Sling?

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What about it?

A lovely matching No.4 Mk.I (T). The sling is the correct U.S. M1907!and is dated 1918 which most of these are on the No. Mk.I (T) rifles.

Canada apparently used lots of British made sniper rifles in WWII. I have only come across one with Canadian issue C/|\ (with arrow inside the C) marking. It is possible that yours was sold surplus by Canada .

Thank you for the insights and comments gents. I traded a CMP field grade M1 Garand ($700) and $2k cash for it.
I think i did pretty well. This one i doubt will ever leave my collection and it’s probably the only thing I’ll ever own touched by Holland & Holland :lol:

I think you still got a bargain.;)

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Originally Posted by JT76

Thank you for the insights and comments gents. I traded a CMP field grade M1 Garand ($700) and $2k cash for it.
I think i did pretty well.

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You certainly did :super:

When I just came out from my Army duty, I went to a gun shop in Milan, known for milsurps.
They had 3 or 4 Enfield T4s in the original crate, with full equipment and and paperworks. Coming from the Italian Army, which was dismissing all the older stuff.
They also had plenty of Garands, again sniper ones. Same full optionals...
The prices, in 1996, where 3.5 and 4.5 million Lire. The more expensive ones being the Enfields. Today I guess that would mean somewhere around 3-4000 €, probably more. And they did not have the appeal they have today.
I drooled before them, but I was poor, looking for a job (which I found in a matter of minutes. After telling that I had been an officer in the Alpini, all companies offered me a job. That was amazing!!! - How much our kids are losing because of this lack of "martial" time...) and wanted to marry my wonderful girlfriend (still my wife). Sometimes, when you have the food, you lack the teeth (we say so...).

So...yes, you scored a bargain!

The Chest, No15 might still be in the neighbour's barn. ;)

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

The Chest, No15 might still be in the neighbour's barn. ;)

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Believe me, i certainly asked! The first 2 American owners of this rifle are long dead though... i think the other goodies are lost to time.