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Hello
Passionate about long-American weapons in original caliber, I only needed a krag.
A gunsmith offers me this one, what do you think? I admit that I do not know enough about this subject....
Best regards
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Looks like a carbine cocking piece.
Sir, you mean the bolt is from a krag carbine?
The cocking piece is "Type 4, headless", which was was used at ~200,000 but discontinued after serial number ~285,000.
How is it being sold? Is he advertising it as an all-correct collectors item? or a refurbished rifle?
The initial left of the cartouche indicates a possible arsenal refurbishment/rebuild which may account for the headless cocking piece being swapped in, but I think those were always 3 letter initials. Others on this forum know far more than me will surely chime in soon.
EDIT: to be more clear, the headless bolt was used on both rifles and carbines in the ranges indicated above.
Thank you for your contribution, I listen to all opinions.
It's a near impossible mission to find a krag here in France:)
Donki, That is a beautiful rifle! How are the bore and mechanics? And-- how much the asking? Salt Flat
The bore should be nice, I'm waiting for more pics...Regarding the price ,I would say high but it is in the lower average practiced in Europe.
1200 USD.
"Donki" - That is a very nice looking U.S. model 1898 Krag. The serial number, 431788, would indicate that the rifle was originally assembled around January, 1903, at Springfield Armory.
As 'ssgross' reported, the "head-less cocking-piece" was originally found on a narrow range of Krag carbines and rifles.
It was an 'economy move', but, proved more expensive to manufacture, than the regular cocking-piece.
The "head-less cocking-piece" was approved in April, 1899, and disapproved in October, 1900. (Likely original use was on Krags from #202,000 to #285,000).
During their Service Use, with the U.S. Military and State National Guard Units, most Krags underwent 'rebuilding' at Springfield or at several Arsenals and Depots.
The rifles and carbines were taken apart and salvageable parts were refurbished.
The refinished parts went into bins for reuse.
Rebuilt arms were assembled from a new combination of parts.
The Krag you are considering, I believe is a very nice example of such a rebuilt arm. That would explain the (1899-1900) 'head-less cocking-piece' and a Stock with the "J.S.A. - 1902" (Acceptance Cartouche) on a Receiver made in 1903.
A lot of Krags were rebuilt in the period preceding U.S. involvement in WW1. It is suspected that letters like the "J", on this Krag's Stock, came in use around 1907, to indicate the 'rebuild facility'.
The 'B', '2', and '42' stock markings are unusual and likely U.S. Unit, Company, and Rack numbers.
Some Krags were taken to Britain and France by U.S. Engineers. These Engineer units were involved in transport and railway duties. They were armed with Krags until receiving more modern arms.
I suspect this Krag has a very interesting story that has been lost in time.
In my opinion, the price seems fair, given the US Krag's rarity in Europe and the condition of this nice example.
(p.s. - The sling on this rifle is not a Krag sling, but, a model 1907 sling, developed for the 1903 Springfield).
Thank you butlersrangers for this these very specific facts! for the moment I have not had the pictures of the barrel, to come....
Very nice looking clean rifle...
I think thaT is a pretty damn good Krag. Many Krags were arsenal refurbished, for instance whe they came back from Cuba or the Philippines. Also there were in-field modifications, for instance the "engineers" modification of the carbine with sling rings. The 1907 sling is the one to have for military shooting events, and is worth money by itself.
That one has the 1901 sight, which is the best one for target shooting. It is in great shape overall and probably did not see any service in tropical climates. I wonder how it ended up in France.
Those rifles can be very accurate and with a little practice you should be able to astound the flaneurs at your rifle range by shooting the heart out of any target that is put up.
jn
I don't have the slightest idea ... he may have arrived in europe recently, in which case he must have a CIP proof mark, I'll find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon_norstog
Even in the US on Gunbroker or the like, a $1200 asking price would not be that much out of line, frankly. It might not move as quickly as a rifle priced at $850-1000. But if it caught the eye of the right collector or (assuming the condition of the bore is comparable to the rest) shooter, it might.
As a point of reference, the latest price for Krags sold out of the stores of the Civilian Marksmanship Program is $1250.
IMHO unless the bore is just a sewer pipe or there’s some unpictured damage, I don’t think that price should greatly deter you.
Hello again,
What matching parts must a KRAG have?if there must be any factory.
Thanks
'Donki' - The Krag you are considering is a U.S. Magazine Rifle Model 1898 (Krag-Jorgesen).
It has the model 1901 rear-sight, which was the preferred sight for Krags remaining in U.S. Army service after 1905.
(It is likely that a lot of Krags that went to the State National Guard Units had the model 1902 rear-sight).
All the parts on this Krag are Model 1898 parts.
Even though the manufacture of 'head-less cocking-piece' was discontinued in 1900, the part was still acceptable and could be used during rebuilding of Krags.
U.S. Krag parts were not serial numbered or matched to the serial number of the Rifle's Receiver.
(Exception was some early model 1892 rifles, made in 1894, that had some parts numbered to the gun).
Springfield Armory was the sole manufacturer of parts and they were intended to be interchangeable, without hand-fitting.
(We learned this from the French)!
You are considering a very nice Krag. It may have even gotten to France with U.S. Engineers (???). It's probably impossible to know for sure, without documentation.
Attached photo of U.S. 12th Engineers in London during a 1917 parade.
Attachment 111326
butlersrangers,
Thank you very much for these last details, I will book this 1898 as soon as possible; if I have the chance to obtain it I will present it in photos on this forum.
Thanks for your help
Regards
FWIW - Some information regarding Arms of 12th U.S. Engineers in 1917-1918:
The 12th Engineers were mobilized at St. Louis, Missouri, in June, 1917. Equipment was issued in July 1917:
"The arms and equipment issued were the old type, used in the Spanish American war, including the Krag-Jorgensen rifle". (From "History of the Twelfth Engineers, U.S. Army", by Colonel John A. Laird, pp. 7-8).
The 12th Engineers landed at Liverpool, England on August 12, 1917. They traveled by Rail and de-trained in London, on August 15, 1917. The 12th, 13th, 14th and 17th Engineer Regiments, U.S. Army, paraded in London and received a large Public Reception. (The picture, I posted, of Engineers with Krag rifles in London, was taken during this event).
The 12th landed at Boulogne on August 18, 1917. During, October, 1917, they were under British overall-command on the Somme. The 12th provided Railway and narrow gauge 'light rail' supply and support for British operations at Cambrai. They were 'nick-named' "The 12th American Royal Engineers".
In November, 1917, the Germans launched a counter-offensive against General Byng's British & Canadian forces at Cambrai. The 11th Engineers and Canadian Engineers were overrun by a rapid German advance. The 11th was the first American unit to fight in France. Being involved in transpot and evacuation of supplies, the 11th was not well prepared for fighting and had to resort to picking-up discarded British and German rifles.
The 12th Engineers were involved in transporting and destroying abandoned material, as well as, restoring Rail Lines, during a major withdrawal. A massive German Offensive, in March, 1918, forced the British forces from Cambrai and the Somme.
The 12th was involved in building defensive positions around Terramesnil and Woirel to stabilize a new British defensive position.
Owing to the likelihood the 12th Engineer regiment would be used as infantry, to strengthen the British Lines, efforts were devoted to drill, bayonet exercises, and target practice. The 12th Engineers experienced a couple of rifle exchanges:
"The Springfield rifles, which had been issued when the old Krag-Jorgensens were taken up after the Battle of Cambrai, were now exchanged for the standard British Lee-Enfield rifle in order to obviate any difficulty in ammunition supply should the regiment be ordered into the British front line". (Page 115).
thank you for this beautiful lesson in history ... we will never forget the help of the brave US soldiers...I managed to buy this beautiful 1898, and it will join its US brothers in my safe!
regards
Hopefully it gets a chance to go to the range too! Now that I'm finally a proud owner of a complete 1898 krag myself this year (after a long wait finding the right one), I can assure you it is very much a pleasure to see and feel it perform first hand.
FWIW:
There were likely around 1,500 Krag rifles that went to France with the 12th Engineers, in 1917.
Similar numbers of Krags probably accompanied the other U.S. Engineer regiments, (like the 11th, 13th, 14th, and 17th).
These Engineer (railway) troops were deployed early in the U.S. WW-1 involvement. Their primary role was to take on military railway construction, repair rail lines, and operate & organize the logistics of moving war material, equipment, and soldiers to the front lines by rail, or extract equipment during retreat.
Eventually, these Engineer regiments had their Krags replaced with more modern arms, although fighting as Infantry was not an Engineer's primary role.
The 12th Engineer regiment exchanged their Krag rifles, for Springfield rifles, after the fighting at Cambrai, in late 1917. (In April, 1918, the Springfield rifles were replaced with Lee-Enfield rifles, due to serving with British forces).
Later in 1918, the 12th Engineers would be under U.S. command.
Prior to leaving France, the 12th Engineers were photographed in April, 1919, at the Port of Bassens carrying Springfields.
Later in April, at New York, and in May, 1919, at St. Louis, Missouri, they were armed with 1903 Springfield rifles.
This all brings up the question: What happened to the thousands of Krag rifles brought to France by U.S. Engineer troops in 1917?
Were they shipped back to the U.S. for recruit training?
Were they simply stored, as reserve equipment, in Europe?
Did some of these Krags get left in France and become rare collector items?
If old guns could only talk!
Donki - Congratulations on your Krag purchase. Please post pictures when it arrives!
I'm trying to hypothesize now about that cocking piece. Field expedient maintenance of a worn part from an older rifle being used as parts? By the troops or maintenance by a collector? What does normal wear of a cocking piece look like? Could the sear engagement have become so worn that somebody replaced it?Quote:
Originally Posted by butlersrangers
If only they could talk. My kids and I like playing a dinner game of inventing realistic sounding stories about my old milsurps. Their favorite, which I've posted here about, is a Longbranch No 4 Mk1*, which poor old "Doug" doodled his name upside down and outboard of the butt stock- he put crosses in the D, o, and g. Most stories involve a private Doug falling asleep, lonely on nightwatch in a hole with the rifle in his shoulder. He looks down and uses the tip of a round to doodle his name. Other marks in the stock show poor Doug may indeed have fallen asleep, awaken by surprise by a bayonet slash, which he tried to parry at port arms, leaving rounded gash across the upper handgaurd and forearm where the enemy's muzzle struck. Sorry - daydreaming of these old rifles is just as addictive as working with and shooting them.
'ssgross':
Springfield stopped making the 'headless' cocking-piece because it cost more than the regular one.
The 'headless' cocking-pieces did not get scrapped or disappear. They did get used and reused.
When good parts were being refurbished to rebuild a batch of Krags, (at Armorys, arsenals, or depots), 'headless' cocking-pieces entered the 'mix' of parts. A 'headless' cocking-piece made in 1899, could end up on an action from 1903, during the rebuild process.
of course I will post pictures as soon as this 1898 gets home.
By the way, he was sent today.
Passionate about history and weapons, I find my happiness among you.
Best regards:clap:
Hi
So the 1898 rifle is at home...it is as in the photos in good condition, a very light cleaning is required.
See you on Sunday for the photos if you wish;
Best regards from France
I'm a bit late for the pics...Sorry I will try to do it as soon as possible, before winter comes I've got much work in my house.
Regards
Good morning,
I had time to take some photos outside, the weather is exceptionally good here today.
I hope you will enjoy....
Best regards
Nice clean rifle...looks great.Quote:
Originally Posted by donki1967
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I am very happy with this purchase, and the barrel is NOT new but in good condition.
The US Krag it is certainly the most difficult American military rifle to find in Europe.
:)
Bayonet? Oiler and wiping rod? I settled for a repro oiler and wiping rod because of cost but a bayonet should be available to you if you seek one...
'donki1967' - You have added a very nice Krag to your collection. It should be a fine 'shooter'.
The "N.J." on the 'Butt-Plate Tang' indicates your rifle had some history with the State of New Jersey - National Guard. The " B, 2, and 42" on your stock could be a N.G. markings.
The Sea Girt, N.J., National Guard Rifle-Range was quite the "Hot Bed" of Competitive Shooting in the early 1900's and Site of the first "U.S. National Matches", in 1903.
Some Sea Girt photos from 1904 and 1906 - Maybe your Krag is in them!
Attachment 111881Attachment 111882Attachment 111883
The second Sea Girt photo is from 1904. It shows the two closest competitors with their Krag slings threaded through the barrel-band swivel and attached to the front "stacking-swivel".
The Krag sling was basically a 'carry strap', copied from the M-1887 sling for the Model 1873 'Trap-Door' Springfield.
In the U.S.A., using the sling as a 'shooting aid' came into practice in the early 1900's. It required the improvisation, shown in the photo, to make the Krag sling serve in this role.
The model 1907 sling, for the 1903 Springfield, was designed to be able to function as a convenient shooting-sling.
Curiously, using the sling as a 'shooting aid' was not in force by the french army before and during WWI.The military sling was only meant to be in use for shoulder carry,if my memories are correct.
(I will check this later to be sure not telling something that could be wrong.)
In any case, thanks for your contribution.
Regards