Lee Enfield Unknown Date

All,

Looking for some help on what I have. I know it’s a Lee Enfield but after hours of research still am not sure of things like original date or where it was manufactured, etc. I know that the nose cap, bolt, receiver and sight serial numbers all match. 54045 Z on all of them. I also see several other markings such as No1 MkIII and FR ‘42. I also believe this is from India due to the crown over GRI and ISA with an arrow stamped into the wood butt. I do not see any original date anywhere. The date is nowhere to be found. It’s completely smooth metal and doesn’t look like it was ever ground out where it would normally be but paced. Really curious on when it was originally produced and if it really is from India as it doesn’t have the screw a lot of folks mention. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Pictures would be a great asset in answering your questions.

Agree, photo's of the rifle would be helpful, but on the basis of the Z in the serial number, if Stratton is correct, it would relate either to a BSA or RSAF Enfield produced SMLE dating from WW1 or just before. A Z prefix is associated with the following production years: RSAF - 1912, 1915, 1916, 1917, & 1918; BSA - 1915 & 1916.

Hope this helps a little.

If I understand correctly the rifle is an Ishapore (Crown/GRI and the Z as a suffix).

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Originally Posted by KentuckyShane

All,

Looking for some help on what I have. I know it’s a Lee Enfield but after hours of research still am not sure of things like original date or where it was manufactured, etc. I know that the nose cap, bolt, receiver and sight serial numbers all match. 54045 Z on all of them. I also see several other markings such as No1 MkIII and FR ‘42. I also believe this is from India due to the crown over GRI and ISA with an arrow stamped into the wood butt. I do not see any original date anywhere. The date is nowhere to be found. It’s completely smooth metal and doesn’t look like it was ever ground out where it would normally be but paced. Really curious on when it was originally produced and if it really is from India as it doesn’t have the screw a lot of folks mention. Any help is greatly appreciated.

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Does it have a 'single' hole gas vent or an enlarged oval hole, or a 'figure 8' shaped gas vent ?

Giove, it may just have been FR'ed in India. RFI is not listed as ever using Z as a prefix/suffix. There is great variability in the positioning of the letters in serial numbers; most serials are letter prefixed, but some suffixed.......

AFAIK the letter associated with a number is there just to distinguish the different blocks of numbers; 'A block', 'B block' etc., & the positioning before or after doesn't have any deeper significance, although the majority of letters are before the digits.

Yes Roger, it's true, but the combination of "clues" makes me think of an Ishapore.

Furthermore, the letter as a suffix is typical of Indian SMLEs.

I can be wrong of course.

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Originally Posted by giove

If I understand correctly the rifle is an Ishapore (Crown/GRI and the Z as a suffix).

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If it helps - My Ishapore (original build and Ishapore Fr'd) has 5 numbers and a suffix "Y"

If the OP could furnish us with some photographs that might clinch it as military proof marks & acceptance stamps would likely narrow down its provenance. We are working on very incomplete information & may be making wrong assumptions. For example, as you say Giove, it could be a RFI original build & has been completely renumbered with a new serial number. Who knows?? Any chance of some pictures??

This is like asking Sir Kenneth Clark to evaluate a sidewalk artist.:lol:

" if Stratton is correct,"

In this case, Stratton is irrelevant. I can refer you to "India's Enfields" by Robert W. Edwards.
This rifle is part of an Indian rebuild program that started in 1942. The "Z" suffix indicates it's from the first group of rifles in the program-----when they got to 99999 Z they'd move up to 00001 Y---the rebuild program ran the alphabet back to front.
All original marks would have been carefully removed with new proofs and serial number added, so there is going to be about no way to discover where or when the rifle started out. The way Assam/Burma ate up rifles in WW2, she could just as well be a 1941 Ishapore that had a very short, hard life. No way to know.
I've had several of these little beauties over the years, but none at present. They are a legitimate Ishapore rifle and a legitimate part of the larger Lee Enfield Story.
-----krinko

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Originally Posted by krinko

" if Stratton is correct,"

In this case, Stratton is irrelevant. I can refer you to "India's Enfields" by Robert W. Edwards.
This rifle is part of an Indian rebuild program that started in 1942. The "Z" suffix indicates it's from the first group of rifles in the program-----when they got to 99999 Z they'd move up to 00001 Y---the rebuild program ran the alphabet back to front.
All original marks would have been carefully removed with new proofs and serial number added, so there is going to be about no way to discover where or when the rifle started out. The way Assam/Burma ate up rifles in WW2, she could just as well be a 1941 Ishapore that had a very short, hard life. No way to know.
I've had several of these little beauties over the years, but none at present. They are a legitimate Ishapore rifle and a legitimate part of the larger Lee Enfield Story.
-----krinko

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That is great info. Thanks
So, My "Y" suffix (38688Y) would be what sort of date ?

Would the FTR markings be as a result of the 'rebuild programme' or would it be an additional (subsequent) rebuild / FTR ?

Thanks for solving the puzzle krinko. I have a copy of Edwards book........perhaps I ought to read it! :rolleyes: Clearly, if the linishing of the old marks has been done thoroughly there is little chance of ever knowing where the rifle started life.

Seems like the original poster is not that interested in the answer! Which poses the question, why ask in the first place!

However the thread is interesting to the rest of us; so thanks for posting the info!

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Thanks for solving the puzzle krinko. I have a copy of Edwards book........perhaps I ought to read it! :rolleyes: Clearly, if the linishing of the old marks has been done thoroughly there is little chance of ever knowing where the rifle started life.

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The shape of the gas vent does help (slightly) with manufacturers identification and is something not changed during FTR's

"So, My "Y" suffix (38688Y) would be what sort of date ?"

The FR mark on the left side of the buttsocket includes the date of the rebuild.
In your case {'46}.
The 3rd Edition of "India's Enfields" has information on this model on Page 67, kind of out of the way---but it is there.
-----krinko

Why would Ishapore be so keen on removing prior markings in 1942? After '47 certainly one would expect it, but why before? Just to make the rifles appear "newer"? In the depths of WWII, with the Japanese in Burma?

Not saying it couldn't be of course; complacency was common enough in 1942 even.

"Why would Ishapore..."

The Edwards book has a fair amount of information in it but "why" is not included.

-----k.

Must find my copy of the book to see if it sheds any light on when the Indians became so keen on linishing out the previous markings, & whether it was instituted for upgrades to a newer spec & refurbishments alike. It's not an area I commonly get involved in, but I'm sure I've seen plenty of rifles made elsewhere that have been through RFI & simply had the new markings added to the left side of the butt socket in the area below the safety spring. I wonder if there was any distinction made between specification upgrades & simple refinishing/refurbishing.......?

By chance I've just got back from buying three SMLE's this morning, one of which is a linished (RHS butt socket) & remarked (both sides of butt socket) No2 MkIV* - it is remarked just 'No2 MkIV*' on the RHS of the socket, & the RFI initials & a '1941' date on the LHS. It's got me curious now!?!