Did the Ross rifle model 1905 MK ll ever see combat action?
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Did the Ross rifle model 1905 MK ll ever see combat action?
Not officially.
Examples have been found marked CEF (Canadian Expeditionary Force), but no indication of actual field service.
Yes I have not read anywhere where they were used in action.
As mentioned previously, there is a MkII in a museum in Calgary that had a Winchester A5 scope fitted at some point. The provenance given is that it was used by Henry Norwest in France; it certainly looks well worn.
From the extant photos of rifle teams of the period, the Ross MkII was practically the standard target rifle in Canada before WWI, and target shooting was a widespread and popular sport. The MkII was a rifle with a proven track record, the MkIII was not. It would not be surprising if some men brought their own rifles to France.
My Rifle is marked 31 BN CEF. Does that mean 31 battalion?
Can you post a picture of the stock markings? Stock marked serial numbers on the 1905 Ross MK II were alpha-numerical.
Most likely. The rifles were used for training in Canada before being sold to the USA later in the war..Quote:
Originally Posted by eliwhitley
I have a relic 1905 Mk.11 bayonet that was dug at Courcellete
Apparently the Loyal Edmonton Regiment and the Canadian Mounted Rifles had them for a while.
I check my notes and see if I can put the dates on it.
Yahoo
Picture
I tried to copy the picture. Try this link.
I will defer to Warren's scholarship; undoubtedly he knows more about this than anyone else here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren
My own impression is that when the Canadian troops were hurriedly mobilized and sent overseas, most them were issued the Mark III, which by 1913 was Canada’s adopted standard. Before the troops departed, a shortage of rifles led to the addition of some 8,000 Mark II* rifles. In England the CEF then spent some months in training (of which some photos showing Mark IIs have survived).
However, by the time the CEF shipped out to France, the Mark III would likely have been issued uniformly, if for no other reasons than to avoid a logistical nightmare and because the Mark II could not be charger-loaded. Though the Mark II had a patented follower depressor that facilitated “dumping” loose cartridges into the magazine, after the British experience in the Boer War, charger-loading was regarded as well-neigh indispensable. In the absence of any period photographs showing Mark II rifles actually at the front in France, it seems almost certain that the relatively few Mark II*s that went overseas stayed in England.
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To get picture click on Yahoo then click on small picture to enlarge.
There is documented history of the 48th (being the parent regiment of the 15th CEF ) being the only regiment issued mkII Ross. This is in page 26 of the History of the CEF published by Canadian Government.
For photots, Look up the 48th highlanders webpage. Many photos of soldiers from the 48th with mkII Ross overseas including in the trenches of France and Belgium.
The 15th Battalion has a very unusual photographic record of the early years in France, but no sign of Mk.II rifles that I noticed. Some "acquired" SMLE's showing up ever before St. Julien though.
Western Front 1915 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
Western Front 1915 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
Western Front 1915 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
so I have looked at this alot, we know it is clear they had mk11 in England prior to France,
England 1914-15 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
England 1914-15 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
Now in the french trenches. Look at the ross on soldiers lap, no mag housing.
Western Front 1915 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
Another french trench picture, two ross rilfes the MkIII is there as well as a ross without the mag housing which would have to be a MKII !
Western Front 1915 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
Western Front 1915 - 15th Batt Cdn Expeditionary Force
The last is role call after the gassing at Ypres, the lone man facing the ranks, you can see the distinctive glint of the MKII magazine spring bar above his forearm. There are M10 ross in the ranks as well as mKII.
I feel this shows the mkII remained in service with the mkIII until replacement by SMLE later in 1915
sorry links are not direct to images. here are screen shotsQuote:
Originally Posted by Olddust
Good finds; I didn't spend too long looking this morning.
Too bad they've got their website coding set to block links to individual photos, but screenshots never fail. ;)
It's an amazing record and so rare as most formations followed Haig's regulations against cameras religiously. I doubt there was any benefit to secrecy, but Haig was a fellow with things to hide. Neither the French nor Germans seem to have bothered with such things.
Two photos on the left. No barrel mounted rear sights, sights mounted on rear bridge. Late production Mk. II** rifles. I wonder if they kept these because they appreciated their shooting potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olddust
This is a great question and I think you are on the right track.. I have been in contact with the 48th highlanders museum, Looking for information, and received this responseQuote:
Originally Posted by tiriaq
“In the UK the 15th Battalion was the last of the 1st Contingent battalions to give up their Ross Mk II rifles for the 1910 MkIII rifles. Apparently this was because Lt Col Currie, who fancied himself as a marksmanship expert, wanted to retain the MkII because he viewed it as a more accurate rifle than the mkIII”
So this gives weight to your thoughts.
The Governments account states that the 15th was the only unit to take the mkII. Owing to insufficient production at the factory of the mkIII. See page 25 of this publication.
https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/th...tionary-en.pdf
It just so happens that then Lt. Col. Currie was something of a marksmanship expert. He was a very diligent student of military matters generally and the BCRA had a number of prominent members other than Currie who played important roles in the War:.
Maj. Hart McHarg, winner of the Palma in 1913 and later OC of the 7th Batt. CEF.
Maj. James Sclater, captain of the 1913 Canadian team at Camp Perry and later OC of the Canadian Corps School of Sniping and Observing at Mont des Cats.
Maj. Robert M. Blair. "Blair served overseas as a small arms expert during the First World War. He became a major in 1915 and was seconded to Experimental Department Small Arms Branch of the Canadian Expeditionary Force in January of 1916 and served to the end of the war in Canada, England and France."
It's easy to see why Currie and other informed officers wanted to take their MkII rifles: they were proven world-beaters at Bisley and elsewhere. The Mk.III Ross was still an unknown quantity to some extent.
I have knowledge of a MkII ** from the 48th highlanders issued to the unit spring of 1914 currently in an estate. Family remains unsure of direction to go. It would be a grail piece for me. I have advised them of its importance, hoping they choose me to carry on the history.