I would like to get a Fairbairn Sykes.
I don't mind having a currently made one so, my question is -
Who makes the best version? Nowill? the Chinese? Someone else?
Best means high quality steel and faithful adherence to the originals..
Printable View
I would like to get a Fairbairn Sykes.
I don't mind having a currently made one so, my question is -
Who makes the best version? Nowill? the Chinese? Someone else?
Best means high quality steel and faithful adherence to the originals..
I purchased a Nowill and Sons 2 yrs ago that i love it. The quality is great and it was reasonably priced compared to a vintage example.
An operator colleague of mine, told me in 1975 the FS they were issued with weren't satisfactory. Bent, didn't keep an edge. Stock might have been bought from the lowest bidder.
You'll get what you pay for. In other words if you want a top quality reproduction 1st Pattern F/S knife there are a number of firms out there who do make such knives but you will have to be prepared to pay a significant amount of money to obtain one. If you want a repro 2nd Pattern F/S knife and don't want to spend too much but still want a reasonably good product, I would say look at an Indian 2nd Pattern F/S knife. I wouldn't bother with repro 3rd Pattern F/S knives since originals are available at a reasonable price.
I used to have a modern William Rogers of Sheffield FS knife which was exactly the same as the one shown to me by a Royal Engineer who was in the Falklands. He had purchased it as a souvenir upon completing his commando course with the Royal Marines and he said they were popular with those who had completed the course and a box full was available to those who had passed.
I collect WW2 Fairbairn Sykes variations.
I love them as antiquities for what they represent as a historical statement and for whom they were associated.
I started with 3rd patterns, then second, then first.
A couple of wood handled variations.
Have to be careful collecting these there are lots of variables, and pitfalls, and fakes, and oddities and "aged" modern reproductions.
I carry a penknife as my EDC, but, if I were in an occupation that required a killing knife, (I am not,) I would buy a modern fighting knives with non-metallic handle and a blade made from modern steel.
Fairbairn himself didn't like the 3rd pattern, and was explicit in his criticism of the cheapness of it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...iLrqyHal-1.jpg
The US made Fairbairn Smatchet is in the middle.
Machine ground 3rd pattern blades (all wartime)
Notice the thickness of the guards on the wartime 3rd patterns.
The post war 3rd patterns usually have a distinctively wafer edged and thin stamped guard.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...i3Grjsjl-1.jpg
Hand ground (drawn) blades 2nd + 3rd pattern (all wartime)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...QgIU2Ikl-1.jpg
A really nice "all black" 2nd pattern on Fairbairn's book "Get tough" - the drawing is of a 1st pattern.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...pwAhCNwl-1.jpg
A selection of 2nd and 3rd pattern wartime blades.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...v4EcDSfl-1.jpg
A wood handled RAF dagger (not 3rd pattern) (wartime)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Nh9ZMhPl-1.jpg
A nice salty first pattern blade showing the distinctive ricasso and S shaped guard.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...T4xror5l-1.jpg
Very nice display of FS knives. Now when we need an example of one we know where to find them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollector
So are the ones currently being made considered repros or simply modern variations of an issue knife that wasn't issued, simply sold to the general public. In other words are they REAL knives?
How about the NATO marked ones?
I would like to have one simply as a representative but can't afford a legitimate WWII one and wouldn't take the chance on one being real or fake anyway. But I don't want a "fake", Chinese made piece of crap, etc.
If they are real, made in Sheffield, what should I look for? Are the ones being sold by the companies legit, should I spend the extra on a NATO marked one?
Quite and easy thing to achieve a good quality copy. Here's a link to the third and second pattern with the price variation, good luck:
Fairbairn Sykes Commando Knife, 3rd Pattern
No, because they are relatively common.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 PM ----------
I don't think you would be disappointed with an Indian 2nd Pattern F/S knife which currently sell in the UK for just under £100 from WWA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
I would say save your cash and buy a book on FS instead.
It really is not (*usually) difficult to spot copies or fakes, if in doubt, simply post pictures of the one you have found on the myriad of FB collecting groups, commando knifes, FPM, Fairbairn Sykes etc., before you spend a penny.
*When you get into the Nail Spike handle, or very rare FS variations, some costing $4000-$5000, the fakery is museum quality, but you're talking 3rd patterns and other than idiots stamping 1942, cross of Lorraine signs, and other stupid obviously spurious stampings you're fairly safe.
I also collect trench knives and US fighting knives and these are starting to become a minefield of fakery.
The Indian one on WWA is a horrible copy of something that never existed, a fat-boy grip with wonky etch - its not military issue anywhere, it's a recently made fake to deceive novice collectors.
The 1975 NATO marked is Ok, but it's a govt. contract version of the cheapest and worst variation of the post war style of FS.
Stamped guard, machine ground blade, unnumbered hilt.
Fairbairn didn't like the WW2 3rd pattern variation, he would have hated the post war 3rd pattern.
Buy a book, read-up, the way that the FS knife was developed is an interesting and historical story. Then go to Ebay US, or any of the collectors sources (first pattern militaria, Ivan Gamsby) and just wait and watch patiently.
I don't think I have spent over $200 on an original WW2 3rd ever, I keep meaning to stop buying them, as I have enough, but they keep coming up in auction.
Usually seller spells the name wrong, mis-titles it, doesn't know what it is.
They make good trades when making deals on rarer knives.
I once traded 10 X 3rd pattern knives for a 1st pattern.
We were both very happy.
Anyway - the above is my opinion, I do not know you, or what your collection is like and can only project myself into the situation you describe, so I sincerely apologize if I have offended or talked out of turn.
My grammar sometimes rubs people the wrong way until they know I mean it all for the best.
When I stopped buying anything that caught my eye and invested in reference books my collection changed profoundly.
Two First Pattern Fairbairn Sykes flank an original 1918 LF&C Trench Knife.
The 1918 still shows it's original blackening on the blade and brass.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...RxFuFCol-1.jpg
Unusual. Normally they're rubbed raw.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollector
I'm not really a typical collector, I never settled on any one thing. Started out collecting bayonets because I could afford them. Then as the kids grew up and moved out I started collecting the rifles that went with the bayonets. As I ran out of rifles and bayonets I could afford, I started buying gear, specializing in canteens and mess kits first but getting odds and ends of other things that I run across. Now I'm buying pistols when I can find them which isn't often. Through all this I've picked up a few knives, a few swords, tents, cavalry items, rucksacks, etc.
On these knives, I only really want one and would like it to be WWII but I never see them that cheap.
I started doing presentations about 7 years ago just for the "fun" of it. They are free and usually at various churches so I don't make any money off them. I just enjoy doing it.
I understand the book buying and I have bought a lot of books on rifles and bayonets over the years but I have a much larger interest in them. I just ordered "Crown Jewels, Swedish Mausers" this evening. In fact I usually thoroughly research every firearm and bayonet I buy before doing so. I've tried with these knives using online sources but even they are so vague I just don't have the comfort level to make the deal. I've brought a couple to the attention of the experts here that looked decent to me but there were quickly deemed fake by those here so I am very wary. I have a hard time justifying the purchase of a book that will likely cost half what the knife does when I'm only after one. This is something that will go on my WWII British display table when I do the presentation. I think they are very nice and important enough to have one of but that's all I'm after. I have the same dilemma with NAZI knives, don't know enough about them to buy one on the spot unless it's cheap and that never happens but I'd love to have one for my display. I pretty much steer clear of anything that has a high fakery rate.
I probably have over 300 bayonets, 115 rifles, 15 handguns, 20 knives, 2 swords, 20 canteens, 10 mess kits and several boxes full of misc gear. My preferred area is Post US Civil War to Korea but I have one Civil War pistol and as I'm a Desert Storm vet I decided I should have some of my things too but I don't do presentations outside of WWI and WWII. Not yet anyway.
I appreciate the advice and take no offense at all. If I found a WWII knife for less than $200 and was sure it was legit, I would buy it. I just can't seem to find one.
I located a book that was reasonable and highly rated which should suit me well, lots of color photos. Schiffler published. got it for $7.00 so I can't complain. I did a bunch of facebook surveys that gave me a lot of points.
Great stuff! The Schiffler book is a great place to start - use mine for reference all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
---------- Post added at 12:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 AM ----------
Not really unusual actually - lots out there still retain the black.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
This is a good page to follow if you're on FB -
Lots and lots of 1918's still retain good portions of their original "black" on the blade or brass.
Often in a lot better shape than mine, which is really pretty crusty.
The replicas on the other hand are ALL polished brass with silver blades.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/215481023138895
Never have I seen even one until yours. We don't get to see many anyway here.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollector
Aye, until I started collecting them, they did seem like rarities of course, but they're out there.
Check out Greg Aloisio's collection on that FB page - he wrote a book on the 1918 which is an incredible reference guide.
https://rdgunbooks.com/shop/ols/prod...ed-300-printed
Blades can be refinished, though cold blue has a distinctive smell, that sometimes gives away a refurb.
The chemical process they used to black the brass is trickier to fake - these are all $1000+ knives now, so I am sure someone somewhere has worked out how to effectively fake a WW1 finish and age it.
Tastes, priorities and values change, over the decades and even centuries now.
My 1918 in the photo had it's original scabbard, which was awful BTW, replaced for a handmade leather scabbard, somewhere a long time ago, the leather is MUCH more practical, but man, I'd love an original for it, lol.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...yWh1iF2l-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Ji5QV6dl-1.jpg
We had one of those raider stilettoes here a while back, one of few I've had in hand. It wasn't bad condition, the handle was still OK.
The USMC raider is not much of a knife now, age has made it so delicate. But, they have some good Pacific theater history to them, good for the fighting knife collection, mine is salty, but that's the only way I can afford most of them - lolQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
My favorite of those few above, for the history and the hold and balance and quality will always be the John Ek Commando.
On the subject of "salty" examples - The OP can find FS for cheaper than $200 there are three on Ebay now, but they will require TLC, and you'll have to add a reproduction sheath - for me this is still better than a post war knife. But, collectors have different priorities.
You pays your money and makes your choice. The problem is that some people want something for next to nothing.
I didn't pay much for my unissued examples of 3rd Pattern F/S knives, one with a NSN and the other a modern example made by a Sheffield knife maker who made 3rd Pattern types during WW2.
I saw that one too, not many of those hereabouts at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcollector
Had a real nice USMC stiletto a few years ago, had been mt FIL's, a WWII Marine. Never had the chance to ask where he got it, but knowing his Marine service record, he must have traded for it. As the handle was still in perfect shape (no visible etching) I decided to sell it before any deterioration took place. It funded my first few handguns. I ended up getting a Nowill's to replace the type in my stash.
Curse this thread, I'll have to go without food for a few days, lol.
Sifting through Ebay auctions to see if there was any original 3rd's for less than $200 - I found this one, not only in beautiful condition, but inexplicably the brown elastic hasn't broken.
Any collector will tell you that's the first thing that breaks/rots/stretches out, even on really nice examples of FS daggers.
$131 not including shipping.
It's a nice original WW2 3rd pattern for less pennies than most replica, fake, post war (stamped guard) junk knives.
(Yes, the blade looks carefully re-tipped, but I can live with that.)
Moral of the story - don't go on Ebay unless you can afford to spend, lol.
Good luck out there :)
WWII British Commando and Paratrooper dagger and sheath | eBay
dcollector, a fine collection, couldn't agree more on buying a book etc, I recently enquired about a 2nd pattern example all good original but there was a discrepancy with the guard, it was marked correct but it had either had a repair on the blade between the ricasso and the hilt or it was put together out of parts, just seemed a bad fit to me.......... price was was just under £1000 way over priced but there you go.
To the OP (Florey55 ) Just save and buy the real deal, or early post war, as pointed out plenty of 3rd Pattern ones about.
Regarding 2nd Pattern Knives, I'm just trying to get a contour jig sorted to knurl the handle, friend of mine has made some outstanding blades and needs some handles.........
Why won't a knurling bar work in your lather? They aren't so wide and they run on a machine feed...should leave a continuous knurl.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
The handle being contoured Jim, the knurling tools available are for straight cut work (parallel bar etc) its the reason the 2nd patterns look so rough as they used a standard tool and done it by hand, in sections.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
If you think of a key cutting machine or similar, the Knurling tool also requires a radius on it, to stop it digging in on the contour of the handle.
You can do it by hand using a very slow feed and manually operate the cross feed to follow the contour, but from experience a simple jig can make a world of difference.
Yes, that's clear...to run it by that method would also have you changing angle of the knurling tool to do some spots. Still, if the originals are a bit rough...it was wartime after all. You aren't going to make hundreds I should think, only a few?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
For now Jim, But remember the Saying, Out of small acorns do grow big trees......Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
Next thing you're doing it for business...Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6