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Years ago I restored two carbines, a NPM 4,2 million and a QHW 1,6 million, both having original barrel barrels. I put aside the adjustable rear sights and forgot about them until I found them again in a box. My question, what kind of value do these sights have now as I would like to sell them. In checking around, prices are all over the place. I have the photos:Attachment 112288Attachment 112289Attachment 112290
FWIW I got between $28 and $30 plus shipping for some Stamped Rear sights I sold last year on the CMP forum. Yours looks better finish wise so maybe a few extra dollars.
Robert
I can't tell...
Is one Milled ?
I'd Bump AFJon a little.
A stamped Adj about $35. A milled about $45.
Thanks Charlie as I was thinking about $60 or $65 for the pair.
I might have to sell my spares at those prices.
Also I found some carbine peep sights, just the peep sight not the dovetailed base. These were in an old gunshop that was closing. Not common to see them without the base, some are marked and some unmarked, these are all NOS having never been installed.
Anyone have any idea as to value ?
Thanks, RCSAttachment 112329Attachment 112330
Looks like they are reproduction parts to me.
Hi Nigerian Bobbie,
I know RCS has had these a long time.
I inquired about em but never followed up.
Ch-P777
Thanks Charlie, i found these L shaped peeps in an old gun shop that was going to close up. One of the employees who only worked in the key section,
a man named Wolton Miller, told me his mother was an inspector in Chicago where they made carbine parts during the war.
I don't have any idea if these are fake parts but they were in the gun shop along time before I found them
I managed to find a old post of mine from 2010. I had a Flip Sight that had a nearly rusted in half spring. It caused the leaf to just flop back and forth, having lost spring tension.
I bought a Repro sight from Nick Daley (sp?) to rob the spring from. IIRC at that time you couldn't find these springs listed for sale anywhere. Anyways I took the New Repro and the real one apart to swap the spring. Project got put on hold and when I got back to it I couldn't remember which Leaf was the real one.
I posted pictures here and fellow member ScottR pointed out which Leaf was the Real one, by comparing the bottom pivoting area that contacts the leaf spring.
Below are the 2 Flip Leafs I had mixed up, #1 is Left, #2 is Right:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07024-1.jpg
Below: #1- Left One From Above:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07026-1.jpg
Below: #2- Right One From The Top Picture:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07029-1.jpg
Second Picture #1 Was Decided as the Original GI Leaf.
Link to that post:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=22458
Also:
Wasn't there just 1 style bottom pivoting area on all GI Flip Sights ?
I recall seeing one of the Spec manuals FM23 -7 May 1942 that shows the side profile/alignment when the short leaf is in the upward position.
This seems to show that going up from the center of the pin hole would line straight up Flush with the outer edge of the small peep thru hole of the blade.
But there must have been a change or the Sight wasn't built this way because my above example would not line up the center pin hole straight up to the front edge of the small leaf.
Other changes can be found in FM23-7 like dropping the Hammer Stop on page 8
See Top Illustration on page 3:
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerd...237/FM23-7.pdf
NOTE:
NOT SURE WHY THIS LINK ABOVE NO LONGER WORKS.
AM TRYING ANOTHER LINK TO FM23-7 FROM 1942 BELOW:
FM 23-7 U.S. Carbine, Caliber .30, M1 1942 : United States. War Department : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
FWIW
Charlie, my two peep sights are just like the last one on the bottom of post #10
These sights are darn small - the leaf even smaller. A small difference in the camera angle can make a big difference when looking at a part that size. Here are (2) pics of a "believed real" sight - the short leaf is offset from the pin by more than I would have expected. :dunno: - Bob
Carbine parts value depends on the maker and when it was made. There are several "types" too. Gunparts wants $28.75 for a 1st issue, repro 'L' rear sight, $20 for a complete, 'late issue', stamped, rear sight. $45.75 for a "middle issue", milled repro, sight. $52 for a milled, Type II without an aperture and $36.50 for a repro Milled Type II without an aperture.
No apertures or 'flip' sights listed.
All Junk !Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunray
We weren't talking about repro stuff anyway...
I found this Rear Sight a long time ago and was always looking to see if I ever would come across another one with the L having the mark BR on it. Is this marking from Jasper Blackburn Co ?
Thanks to Bob for letting me know there was one posted. I have never tried to sell it because I never knew if it was fake or not.
Frank, your BR coded peep is just like mine, notice the larger outside diameter.
So, are they original ?
Robert
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCS
Robert, I have a couple Originals Flip Sights and I will look at the differences between them. I was told both that this one was Original and early iirc maybe later and a couple of people said it was fake but they still offered to buy it from me and say they could use it for Re-enactments. I have this Sight so I can take more picture and show it. I'm just a little busy at the moment. Let me know if you want to see all sides and the thickness compared to others.
Frank, no rush, maybe a photo of the side profile and bottom
Thannks, Robert
That company made 'em for Rock-Ola. - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by imntxs554
Here are the SidesQuote:
Originally Posted by RCS
I found my link was dead and resulted in a 404 error in my earlier post.
I added a new link to May 1942 FM23-7 to it and am adding it here:
FM 23-7 U.S. Carbine, Caliber .30, M1 1942 : United States. War Department : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
It will show the center pin is supposed to line up with the back edge of the short leaf when upright.
I've compared the illustration in the FM to real Flip Sights I have loose and installed. Very hard to tell, because spring tension varies.
Appears the back edge of the bases pin hole lines up.
But doesn't appear like the center of the pin hole will.
Hope this makes sense.
I still ask:
Were all Flip Leafs made with the 5 sided/edged bottom?
Or were some made like the example #2 with 4 pivot sides ?
Anyone know of a schematic / drawing of Leaf ?
I'm really tempted to take a couple different makers apart to see.
5 Side ? 4 Side ? Or both ?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07024-1.jpg
I see that this has Wide and Narrow Radius. I'm sure you probably looked through this one already.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2880a10a-1.jpg
Charlie, It seems like a guy could tell if 4 or 5 sides by whether the flip feels like it "wants" to stay firmly at the "half-way" position, or not. Maybe that's what you meant by "hard to tell because spring tension varies"? Could it be the difference you felt is in the size of the flat between the two types, and not a difference in spring pressure? I've got (4) that are original and still on the Carbines. Behind here on other "stuff" and hate trying to get them out of the safe right now. Maybe could at least check one of them tomorrow. None of them have marked leaves, though. - Bob
Bob, I Have 5 or 6 and a couple of them are Very Hard to Flip. Does this mean someone removed the L and added a different one to the Base and by doing so made it that tight ?Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Frank, I don't know the answer to that. I've never taken one apart. When I had one of the carbines out of the safe awhile back, I noticed the tall "flip" was up on it. Couldn't figure out how it got that way, but must have been someone looking at it when on display at a gun show. I didn't noticed anything out of the ordinary when I changed it back. I'll go check a couple of them soon, and see if I can tell any differences. - Bob
I've got a loose Rock Ola and Inland with WSI marked leaf, forget the Rock Ola markings.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Wait...... I found the picture from a old post here. The RMC Flip is a RR base and A-R leaf. Those were among the last parts I needed to restore a RMC 1,713 back in 09 that I still haven't put together !
You'll see the RMC leaf is crusty and have wanted to change it.
Prolly why I didn't finish it up.
Also have 3-4 sight bases, extra springs, pins and 3 or 4 unmarked leafs that I need to check to see if they're like the 4 sided one in the picture above. 1 leaf was from RCS and in my bed side table drawer still in the package he sent a ~year ago with a S'G' bolt, S'G' Firing pin, S'G' extractor and a Magcatch.
I need to get better organized. All my 'Smalls' are in Ammo boxes, crates, plano cases and a couple old dressers downstairs full of USPS priority boxes. The extra stocks and handguards are the hardest to store. I have boxes so the stocks lay flat and boxes that printer paper comes in full of hand guards.
@Bob USGI:
If I try digging out part boxes that are tucked away all over this place right now after she's cleaned and decorated the last few days for Thanksgiving, I know I'll be booted to the curb! She's got that LOOK if you know what I mean.
@ Frank,
I haven't seen that Flip sight chart. Is it from Larsons book ?
If so thats why I haven't seen it. I refuse to send any $$ the way of L&S :nono:
Here's the picture of the RMC Parts and a old link back to them:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15959
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC05204-1.jpg
Happy Thanksgiving All :thup:
Usually when a flip is hard to move, it is because the base has been squeezed. If the wings of the base can be spread ever so slightly, the leaf will move much more freely.
---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------
Charlie, the sight flip chart is out of Harrison's book.
No Charlie its not from him, The other day I was looking through All my books for something I needed to know and I just remembered when looking through Harrison's "The M1 Carbine 3" I had remembered seeing 2 pages of different sizes of Flip Sights and explanations. The References like 1-10 and A-D are on the next page, but I didn't take a picture of it and put it with the one I did because I didn't know if this was going to help you or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Thx guys,Quote:
Originally Posted by imntxs554
Another book I've never seen. After hearing about the messed up Crossed Cannons Template and mis-information I figured starting out with the Ruth-Dow and Riesch books were good enough for starters.
Happy Thanksgiving Boys !
PS: a small bolt with nut screwed on it placed between the inside walls of a flip base, then using 2 pairs of needle nose backed the nut off slowly. Spread it just enough to ease the binding of the leaf. I had placed a small piece of card stock between each side so I didn't scar the inner base walls. Bubba had whacked it pretty hard, but this fixed it with no further damage. Sometimes you get lucky!
Is this possible...When you use that Black Box like Tool to remove a Rear Sight and the Sight is Not budging even when you oiled it overnight can the Receiver start to bend inwards from the bottom when your applying more strength ? I have a friend who insists on Breaking down his Carbine and trying to fix something when he doesn't know much about it, but can Shoot and hold his own against us old Grunts (at Short distances) brought it over and ask me to pull back the Slide and Cycle it and that's when he told me he was changing out his Rear Sight and felt something different. Well right when the Bolt was starting to move towards the dovetail it felt Tight nothing like I've felt before. That's what I was looking through my Books just to see if there was something about that happening. Now that I exhausted what and where I would look to find Answers I didn't, so now I'm asking if anyone thinks it can happen and what can you do about it. One thing I know for Sure now is that I will not loan him any of my Carbines anymore when he goes Shooting with his friends.
one like this ?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mat1500w-1.jpg
That's exactly like the one he bought over.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Frank,
I find it hard to believe he was able to torque on that allen wrench hard enough to bend the receiver, IF he did it all by hand.
Both USGI Bob and I have one like pictured.
Do you think he might have stuck the receiver in a vice ?
Look for any damage/crush on the Op Slide spring housing.
Just to double check, see if the Op slide arm is still straight.
Most importantly: I'd also measure the receiver width across the top and bottom at the rear, middle and front.
I'd also like to add, Check to be SURE that both bolt lugs and tracks are lubed.
A fellow member shared this on another forum:
"I must mention an experience I had recently. After a thorough cleaning and before oiling, the slide and bolt refused to move rearward to test function,
but after oiling the lugs, it cycled smooth as silk."
Please keep us posted,
I'll check back in tomorrow morning
Oh Yeah Charlie I had Plenty of questions and doubts also, but I've Shot that Carbine Several Times when I overhauled it or he would say something was wrong and we meet at the P&,R Club and I would Shoot it then to feel how tight it felt when pulling the Slide back it was Tight. I grabbed 3 of my Carbines and we both cycle them and it was like night and day. He didn't want to leave it but I told him that we had to take measurements, so that's the next Step. I've had a bottom lug Crack on me a long time ago and I never knew why. That's why I'm wanting find out what happened. I had to accept what he said he did. I even told him that if it was that tight I was surprised that he didn't chip off a chunk of metal on the Dovetail.
I also have that set of Tools to Remove and Install the Rear Sight and the tool for the Front Sight as well and I have Never had to use so much strength to remove a Rear Sighthttps://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2dc5fbc9-1.jpg
---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------
Here are a few Rear Sights that I Hope the Price has climbed so I can get some of that Cash..https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...89e1916d91.jpg
Jeez, I go do other things most of the day including taking notes to share on (3) of my carbine's rear sights. Got too late, so come back to turn off this computer and find that I'm a couple pages behind on what's going on! Need to get back on here tomorrow before I'm totally behind! I was wrong about none of them having a marked leaf - the S'G' sight does. Also, my rear sight tool came from Nick Daily, but I do have some other tools from Matrix. See you guys tomorrow, but I'll be getting a late start.
@ Frank - Too late to type up my notes and PM you tonight. Maybe I can get them polished up a bit and post them here instead.
- Bob
One of those flips is very suspect even from the distance shown. Several have features begging for closer inspection.
Here's the information I put together after checking out the Type 1 rear sights on (3) of my Carbines. I have (2) 6 digit Inlands, but only looked at one of them, figuring there probably wouldn't be much difference between the two. - Bob
Sight #1 - Winchester 5.6M
Marking: Base, square "S" only (Lyman)
- There's a tendency for the leaf to stop at the halfway point, but just barely wants to stay there.
- The leaf can be placed very close to the halfway point and will stay put, without moving to it.
- With the short leaf "up" there's a bit of play, and it can stay slightly forward of vertical.
- The spring has very little room for "fore and aft' movement as the leaf position is changed.
- The pin is centered on the short leaf and is off-center slightly on the tall one.
Sight #2 - Saginaw S'G' 1.8M
Marking: Base, "B-IP" (Blackburn), "S"
Leaf, "RG-S'G' (Redfield)
- There's a definite "stop" at the halfway point, but doesn't return there if relocated a bit.
- The leaf locks firmly in both sighting positions with no felt play at either.
- The spring has more room for "fore and aft" movement, and uses it all as the leaf position is changed.
- The pin is centered more closely on the tall leaf than it is on the short one.
Sight #3 - Inland 476K
Marking: Base, "S -" only (Hemphill?)
- There's absolutely no felt tendency of the leaf wanting to stop at the halfway point. NONE.
- The leaf locks firmly in both sighting positions with no felt play at either.
- The spring has more room for "for and aft" movement, very similar to that on the S'G' sight.
- The pin is very close to being centered on both the short and tall parts of the leaf, but
there is a slight difference depending on which side you are viewing from.
The 4th from the left looks kind of "skinny." :dunno: - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
My mistake, I believe it was the Matrix Front Sight Tool to remove the pin we both have.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Am I right Bob ?
Thank You Charlie, This is definitely not over. I know he does have a Vice, but I could only go with what he told me. I know he will bring it back and Thank You Again for giving me all the things and what to look for on his Receiver.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
The 2nd from the left makes me give it the fish eye. The colors look fine. Spring and some base patina look well aged (as in real) but the shape....Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
I'm still trying to figure out the bottoms on the leafs.
4 or 5 edges.
Looking at the Flips Number 5 caught my eye. Appears it doesn't have the first ledge like the others.
I'm new to cropping and painting pics. Took me a frigging 1-1/2 hr+ to do this picture and I couldn't get it bigger. I did use a light filter so the area shows up better.
Like my picture earlier in this thread... Are GI 4 or 5 sided on the bottom?
Or both, just different maker methods ?
Happy Thanksgiving
No light filtering on my linked pic.
Here's the original:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...e1916d91-1.jpg
Charlie I took close up Pictures so you can see them better. I would Never try to manipulate any photos of parts by adding different colors or trying to make them look different I only used the Flash. Nobody will get away posting Fake pictures here and calling them All OriginaI not with all the knowledge of Collectors here. I know most are fake but I know atleast there's 3 that are Real that I bought from Roger awhile back.
Couldn't answer with a simple Yep! error: message too short! but, YEP!Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Pics are good. I don't see anything damning in those pics. One leaf looks odd. Side views of flips tell the most about them.
Here are some with Side Views...There's 4 more I bought from the CMP Forum, but I'm still looking for them. They will pop up soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Frank, If I wanted to buy a Type 1 sight and was given the choice of picking one out of the (7) pictured above, I'd take the 6th one. I've never bought one separately and probably never will, but that's the one I'd choose. - Bob
Well, the news I would share isn't too positive. Sorry to say but I don't like 2, 3, 4 or 7.Number 2 and 3 look like they came from and were worked on by the same person. Five has no staking for the pin which is worrying as well.
Its too bad they have been beaten on as much as they have as they have been distorted to even a real one appearing to be fake.
It's possible the first 2 I mentioned are camera issues but they appear to have been wiped with bluing and it could be because it was after someone aged them. The one with the banged corners on the base looks notoriously done to hide that it's reproduction. A glance at the bottoms of those will tell a bit more of the story if we could see that.
I was glad to see that someone had posted something about Rear Sights because I've had these for awhile now and I always had my doubts about them. I never have tried to sell them or list them because of the same facts you see. I never seen Flip Sights that were beat to crap and also have the circular marks on the sides. I showed them to get information on them but please don't think I had anything to do with how they look and if I did I would of never showed them because of all the knowledge here. It only helps me out to know everything about them. I posted 1 of them when I bought it at a gunshow and was told it looks real but people who do this and prey on the new people that are now buying up mostly everything that has to deal with M1 Carbines even if there Fake Sights on ebay. I sell there also and I take Pride in my 100% Rating with Great Feedback and I have Never thought about listing them and be one of those guys. I Never mentioned I had All Original T1 Rear Sights but I am happy to know that they are all Worthless pieces of Metal.
The FOB looks good.
Frank; if you don't mind, would you share couple pics of leaf and bottom of base on this one?Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC