M1903 Problems

Evening all....
My American Legion Post has 9 1903's. 1 Rock Island, 7 Springfields and 1 Remington. Dating from 1903 (118XXX) to 1942 (318XXXX). We have been firing them at funerals for veterans. We were having problems with them not firing, not ejecting the cartridge and trouble reloading rounds. Who knows how long it was when they were last cleaned. I took them home and my son and i did a good cleaning on all of them. Some of the ejectors were worn, so i replaced them. I was given 10 firing pins and springs so i replaced them also. I put 3 spent rounds in each weapon and worked the bolt and all ejected fine. We took them out the other day, put in blanks and tried firing them. After firing the rounds, we had trouble with the bolts. I had to slam the handle with the palm of my hand to get it to move upward. Once it popped up, i was able to pull it to the rear and eject the spent round. Anyone have any ideas of what may be going on?
Thanks in advance....

I wonder since they are "Cock on opening", does the internals of the bolts need more lube, grease? Maybe the cocking cam?

Sounds like your issue is with the blanks as they are fine with standard rounds. Possibly some sort of coating on the case of the blanks?

Jim, everything was well oiled.

Eagle, haven't fired any live rounds, just blanks.

Its almost like when the blanks are fired, it jams the bolt somehow.

I would advise NOT to lubricate the cases - hatcher's notebook is full of mishaps due to soldiers lubricating rounds.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Sounds like your issue is with the blanks as they are fine with standard rounds.

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I read the OP as they inserted empty cases and they cycled fine - not that they fired standard rounds and they cycled fine.
Check the easy things first which only require and eyeball -
- check the chambers for rust, polish if necessary,
- triple check behind the lugs. I recall m16 blanks were exceptionally suety. If your rifles have only ever been fed with blanks for decades, there could be lots of buildup in there or other critical places.
- If the blanks are indeed coated with something, perhaps try tumbling the blanks in walnut media, or burnish with steel wool.

The OP says the bolts are hard to open, not hard to pull and extract. So, I just did an experiment on all my 03s and a3s. Mark a line parallel to the case with a Sharpe. Carefully insert a fired case under the extractor, and chamber with your line on top. dry fire, and slowly open. You will notice the cartridge does not twist at all, my line was still vertical on all rifles.
A lot of things can happen with the jarring caused by firing. Worn parts, or those with heavy and hardened carbon buildup, could be misaligned in the cocking cam, creating difficulty opening.
In my experience, the fouling caused by blanks was so bad at the end of a training exercise (m16 blanks) that in subsequent training events we would purposefully not fire, and literally yell "bang" instead (and of course get in trouble for it). That s&*^ gets everywhere you least expect it...and sticks more when things are well lubricated. If not cleaned thoroughly after each firing, the extra carbon from blanks will build up and harden - and no matter how thoroughly YOU scrubbed decades later, it likely isn't coming off without special treatment - e.g. they make scrapers for ARs for this purpose in heavily fired rifles. Summary version - blank ammo is some really really exceptionally dirty stuff.
If you confirm your problem is indeed hard carbon fouling, you can try a soaking carbon cleaner, like slips 2000 http://mail.slip2000.com/slip2000_carbon_killer.php
I haven't used it, but you will find videos on the web for cleaning up muzzle brakes, and other parts that normally get this kind of buildup.

Maybe you could swap the striker assemblies between the different rifle bolts to determine which ones is the most likely offender.
Have a look at the cocking ramp on the bolt (s) to make sure its not galled or damaged in some form. Same thing one the striker rod contact surfaces.
Make sure the square threads on the shroud are in good order, receiving threads in the bolt well are clear/clean little touch of grease.

The blanks are the cause of the problem. Start the solution there.

There are two different blanks in 30-06, one has a red cardboard plug in the bullet end. The other has a crimped end. Which one are you using?

I've never encountered the ones on the right. Just the M1909 blanks...

Here’s a pic of the crimped one after firing. If I’m correct the left on is used to launch rifle grenade. One on right is a blank round used for practice with blank adapter installed. Could you be using the wrong kind?

Attachment 115057Attachment 115058The new version of the 1909 cal .30 blank supplied by Lake City to the VFW and American Legion is the 6 petal crimped version. The 5 petal crimp was used on USGI grenade cartridges. The use of grenade cartridges in M-1 Rifles with BFA's caused several injuries at military funerals. The VFW has warning info at their web site regarding this issue.

Great info. What were the red cardboard blanks used for?

The original 1909 cal .30 blank had a slight roll crimp to hold a cardboard wad that was sealed with red lacquer. It was used in rifles and MG's. The 6 petal crimp is the recent Lake City design that best suits their modern manufacturing equipment.

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Originally Posted by Rockandroll

There are two different blanks in 30-06, one has a red cardboard plug in the bullet end. The other has a crimped end. Which one are you using?

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Note that the cartridges on the right in the attached image are 7.62 NATO blanks, not .30/06, as is the fired blank image attached to post #10 in this topic (note wide extractor groove).

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Note that the cartridges on the right in the attached image are 7.62 NATO blanks, not .30/06

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So they are. Told that they were .30 cal one doesn't compare. The linked cartridges are indeed 7.62 blanks, post #8. Compare case wall to the shoulder.

Last time OP was on was 7 Feb...we could be waiting.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Last time OP was on was 7 Feb...we could be waiting.

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too bad...I've been awfully curious at what the real problem ended up being....on pins and needles here.

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Originally Posted by joellama

Who knows how long it was when they were last cleaned.

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with blanks, and the fact that they extracted after trouble turning the bolt, I'd bet a beer and my pride that the real problem is that there is still plenty of hard baked on carbon from blanks built up that no amount of "regular" cleaning will get rid of.:beerchug:

Oh well. guess I'm drinking alone...again.:crying:

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Originally Posted by ssgross

no amount of "regular" cleaning

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I'd have started with a .45 cal brush on a steel section of rod in a drill. Oil and spin.

I did similar on a 1903 where the bolt was clearly a bit sticky. I used a 308 AR chamber brush to get behind the lugs. I have an AR "scraper" tool that I haven't had to use yet.

I was wondering if you guys would catch the 7.62 blank. Good eyes.