No4 serial Number

I just received this No4. The paperwork says it is a Mk II . It came in a Big 5 box listing the original sale price as $139.99. It appears that the rifle has not been fired since it was placed in the box (lots of dust, all of the lubricants have solidified into sludge, moving parts difficult to move, etc.). The serial number listed on the box matches the number on the receiver above the import mark, but there is a different number on the left wrist. Can anyone advise why there are 2 numbers and which one is the actual serial number? Thank you for you assistance.

Attachment 115509Attachment 115510

Also, can someone please advise what the this attachment below the front barrel band is for? Thanks again!

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The "CC" number on the buttsocket is the original manufacturers serial number.

It was manufactured by Royal Ordnance Factory Fazakerley (Nr Liverpool England)
It has an "A" suffix which shows that somewhere on the rifle is a non-standard part which had to be hand fitted.
The Fazakerley quality control was not good so things like 'holes drilled out the wrong size' was not unusual.

The 'number' on the side of the body was probably a serial number issued by the importer who didn't know where to look for the 'proper' number.

Thank you sir! Any ideas reference the the attachment below the muzzle?

That device is a non British Military modification used as a piling swivel to stack rifles in groups of 3 standing up.

Agree with Bindi. I'm not sure, but suspect I may have read somewhere that the Turks used them.

I'd have a gecko at the draws as in pic #2 there is a longitudal crack heading forwards in front of the tie plate, may be nothing but still worth having a look.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

I just received this No4. The paperwork says it is a Mk II . . .

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The tie-plate and receiver marking "No4 Mk1 ROF(F)" indicate this rifle is a Mk1, not a Mk2.

Flog it and find one without those fugly import markings is my advice.

Pull that silly projection off and the muzzle band can at least be reset between the pins and tightened properly.

I suspect the addition of a piling swivel, (or rod in this case) makes the rifle likely to be one of those released by the Italian navy a couple of years ago.

No, the piling rod is a Turkish device. The Italian Navy (as well as the other Italian armed forces) never used this device.

Thanks everyone! There is an import mark from "IAC Billerica" on the left side of the receiver. An earlier post here on this forum indicated that a significant number of No4 Turkish rifles were imported and sold through Big 5. Since the gun came in a Big 5 box (with the wrong serial number and wrong Mk identification listed on it), then I think it is safe to assume it is one of that batch. None of the numbers match other than the barrel/receiver so this one is going to be a "shooter" and if I find a nicer one down the road, a trade-in. All of the cosmoline has been removed along with a lot of grime and she will be ready for linseed oiling by the end of the day. As it came apart, it was pretty obvious that this rifle had not been fired or cared for in any way for many many years. The bore turned out really nice. And yes, I think I will leave the piling attachment off so the muzzle band fits properly!

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Originally Posted by Singer B

None of the numbers match other than the barrel/receiver so this one is going to be a "shooter" and if I find a nicer one down the road, a trade-in. !

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If the bolt doesn't match then it came from another rifle.
Bolts are not interchangable so it would be advisable to check that the locking lugs fit properly against the locking lugs on the rifle body.

If they don't you could have problems, its not impossible to resolve it but it will take some work.
Just post again if you need guidance as how to mate (properly) a bolt to a rifle.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

If the bolt doesn't match then it came from another rifle.
Bolts are not interchangable so it would be advisable to check that the locking lugs fit properly against the locking lugs on the rifle body.

If they don't you could have problems, its not impossible to resolve it but it will take some work.
Just post again if you need guidance as how to mate (properly) a bolt to a rifle.

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Thanks! I will be taking it to my gunsmith to have him check it. I'm looking forward to shooting it in a few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

Thanks! I will be taking it to my gunsmith to have him check it. I'm looking forward to shooting it in a few weeks.

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Thats a good idea, but make sure he is an Enfield smith who knows the peculiarities of the Enfield construction and how to check that the four locking lugs correctly engage.

This is a Turk stacking rod. Don't remove it! These rifles are getting rare and hard to find. It is direct provenance of where your rifle has been. Great price. Great find!!
PS, as you know, it's not a Mk 2. It's a Mk 1.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

Thank you sir! Any ideas reference the the attachment below the muzzle?

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Originally Posted by limpetmine

This is a Turk stacking rod. Don't remove it! These rifles are getting rare and hard to find. It is direct provenance of where your rifle has been. Great price. Great find!!
PS, as you know, it's not a Mk 2. It's a Mk 1.

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Thanks! I have it reassembled and after a lot of cleaning and a lot of lubricant it functions correctly now. I confirmed the trigger is hanging from the trigger guard. She isn't the prettiest No 4 I have ever seen, but she has some history.

"...this attachment..." Is a stacking hook.
"...paperwork says it is a Mk II..." Look at how the trigger is connected. Trigger on a Mk I hangs off the trigger guard. A Mk II's does not.
No matter what else you should check the headspace before shooting it. You can buy($31.99 each from Brownell's. And you need the whole set) headspace gauges or rent 'em. I would not let my smithy buy them. You will pay for 'em and he will keep 'em.
Then slug the barrel. Not all of 'em are .311".

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Originally Posted by Sunray

No matter what else you should check the headspace before shooting it.

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Several generations of American shooters (and perhaps some Canadians, too) have been convinced by bad information that something mysterious and scary called "headspace" should be checked and re-checked on almost any surplus rifle, especially Lee-Enfields. The truth is less interesting but still worth knowing.

Stripped to its essentials, with a rimmed cartridge like the .303, headspace is simply the distance between the front of the bolt and the back of the barrel. It's the space where the "head" (rim) of the cartridge fits when the rifle is loaded.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...eadspace-1.gif

Since there has to be some room to allow for varying rim thickness, the headspace is normally a bit more than necessary - giving what I call "head clearance", a little extra space so the bolt can close easily, even on the thickest rim allowed.

In addition, Lee-Enfields and their ammo were often made with a fair amount of space for dirt, mud, snow and other battlefield debris between the chamber and the cartridge's body and shoulder ("Body/shoulder clearance"). Since the cartridge is controlled by its rim, this clearance doesn't do any harm (except to handloaders who insist on full-length sizing).

When a full-power .303 cartridge is fired, a whole string of events occurs.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor...estretch-1.gif

1. The firing pin shoves the case forward, rim against the breech.
2. The primer detonates. If it's not heavily crimped in place, it backs out, shoving the bolt and barrel as far apart as it can.
3. The thin, forward part of the case expands to fill and grip the chamber while the bullet moves out of the case and down the barrel.
4. The solid case head can't expand and grip the chamber, so it moves rearward, re-seating the primer, stretching the case walls just forward of the head, and stopping when it hits the bolt face. (In rear-locking actions like the Lee, the bolt and receiver also compress/stretch to add a little more movement. The higher the pressure, the more they move.)
5. If (and only if) the amount of head movement exceeds the elastic limits of the case, the cartridge separates into two pieces.

New cartridge cases can normally stretch a lot before breaking. Even with a minimum rim .054" thick and maximum "field" headspace of .074", the resultant .020" head clearance is well within the limits of new brass and it's very unlikely a new case will separate even if the headspace is somewhat more than the field maximum (which is pretty rare).

OK, but if one does separate I'm in deep trouble, right? Not really. It seems the short "cup" left behind the break is pretty good at keeping most of the gas where it belongs. Here's a demonstration -

First I took a case that had been reloaded with heavy loads enough times so it was stretched near breaking.
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor.../303sep1-1.jpg

I loaded it with a 180-grain bullet and 40 grains of 4895 - a reasonably stiff charge about 2 grains under "maximum" - and fired it in a much-abused Savage No.4 with a clean sheet of typing paper wrapped around the receiver.
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor.../303sep3-1.jpg

When I opened the bolt, the separated head extracted. (The front piece of the case fell out when I happened to turn the rifle muzzle-up while removing the paper.)
http://www.milsurps.com/images/impor.../303sep2-1.jpg
The sooty paper shows where some gas escaped. No rips or holes, just a little soot - and only where the bolt meets the barrel. Had I been shooting from the shoulder and wearing glasses, I probably wouldn't have noticed the leak at all.

The point of all this is that excess headspace, even a bit beyond normal limits, isn't the terrible danger we've heard so much about. It's not a good thing for consistent ignition or long case life (although handloaders who neck-size or adjust F.L. dies carefully can control this) - but it's not a disaster waiting to happen.

Unless you're consistently getting broken cases when firing new ammo or brass, there's not much reason to be worried about headspace in these sturdy old Lee-Enfields. Relax and enjoy!