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Took another chance, they knocked $300 off these for 24 hours today. Pretty sure it's an 1888-90 but that's OK. They are selling those for the same price. I think the condition on these is a bit better than the latter. I'm going of photos of the samples and the rear sights are the same on both. Only difference is the rear sight, they didn't do anything else to the rifles to allow them to fire smokeless.
Says it will be two weeks till it gets shipped.
We'll be watching...picture heavy then.
Didn't give me much time to research, this one hasn't been on my radar. The sale put it in my price range. Now I'm trying to figure out if I have the bayonet for it or not. I don't recall buying one for it but they are showing the Ersatz bayonets fitting them and if they do, I have one of those. One on ebay right now but it looks a little peculiar. The finish looks weird, like it's been reblued. The rivets don't look like rivets but screws and they aren't clear and look dark blue. Grips look too smooth. Just too many things off with it. The others they have listed are not 1888 bayonets but 1895 bayonets. I will look for a sling in the meantime.
And now a hard lesson in how things have changed in the relatively short time I've been collecting these "things". Hard to believe but I've been at this for only 12 years officially although the first few I bought were over 30 years ago. Anyway, 10 years ago I could purchase a rifle and have a sling, clips, bayonet, etc on the way from various sources within hours. Today, nothing. Bayonet is there but it's crap. They were never blued, they were in the white. Repro slings of M95 carbines that would not be appropriate for this. Clips I believe are the same as the M95 but won't know that until it actually arrives. At least I know what the sling is supposed to look like. Slip ring on top, adjustable pin/rivet on the bottom.
Being proactive, these seem to be missing some parts when they arrive. Safety, extractor, safety screw and volley sight. Oddly enough all these are available from Numrich. So I placed an order with them just in case. Should be able to sell them easily enough if they are actually present. Figured I'd order just in case there is a run on them with everyone else buying the rifles and they do seem to be selling fairly quickly with their flash sale.
On the slings, I found other types in different photos so might be good on modifying an M95 sling.
My M90 (M88/90 that was not a updated M88) Mannlicher is one of my favourite rifles. It gives my Swiss K93 Mannlicher a run for its money on smoothness and explains why the Austro-Hungarians preferred them until the effects of smokeless powder on the action long term became apparent. Heavy rifles though, which also explains why on the M95 series they were so proud of how thin they made the barrel, it was a substantial reduction in weight (which also resulted in a loss of accuracy).
Excited to see what you end up with!
I found a guy in the Czech Republic that makes correct slings. I'm getting two of them because my M95's all apparently have incorrect slings.
My parts from Numrich came today. They look real good. I have heard nothing from RTI so I decided to check my credit card balance and it was charged yesterday so it's getting real. Tomorrow is week two so it should be shipping.
Shipped Thursday, arrives tomorrow if all goes well. FedEx so shouldn't get lost in the mail for a couple of weeks. Tracking had it in Virginia at noon today. Easily in PA by tomorrow.
It has arrived. It is filthy. It has all the parts I purchased from Numrich but I will have to replace the middle band because they did pound down the volley sight pin. It is however missing a sling swivel screw. not a dealbreaker. The butt stock is marked AOI, markings are present on the barrel, receiver, butt plate, bolt but what I can check doesn't match. The bore is very dark but I see rifling. Stock has no major cracks that I can see, usual small crack at rear of tang. A couple of the screws are loose. Safety works.
Wife is yelling at me to change my clothes already. Admittedly my hands are covered with crap already and all I did was take photos of it and pull the bolt out and put it back.
Very impressed with how they packed it. Heavy bubble wrap the full length, then a cardboard sleeve full length and then packed tight in the outer box. My Berdan they just threw in a box with no packing.
Photos later. I have to go get a new cleaning rod and then change my clothes and get to work on it.
I'm thinking this actually is an 1888 as the rear sight does not appear to have been altered. Will have to investigate that further when it's cleaner.
Everything that moves seems to work as it's supposed to. The rear volley sight extension is there but it's stuck which was expected.
Finish is as expected, very worn. But not as bad as my Berdan. And they did not wire wheel it thank goodness. Anxious to get it out of the stock.
Stock is not dried out, plenty of oil soaked in it. It will be getting the citristrip treatment. Some scratches, no primers pounded into it like some. No additional soldier embellishments I can see.
I'm a little concerned with the bore but who knows, could just be dirt and crap.
Disassembled the major parts. Stock is soaking in citristrip. Bore is not pretty. It has strong rifling but someone didn't take very good care of it. Dark with pitting. Bullet does not go all the way in the muzzle so it isn't worn out, just ugly. Not the worst I have but pretty low on the scale.
Very little pitting anywhere on this but an interesting fact is that the exterior is just plain worn. You can rub your hands along the barrel and where the bands are it isn't worn and you can feel it. So as for original finish, there isn't any. It is a nice blue grey color however so it looks like finish. Patina well call it. No sand in any of this stuff so they apparently didn't store them as badly as a lot of people seem to believe. It's just fossilized grease all over it and under the wood line it was packed pretty heavy with it. Interior is somewhat of a mess.
I ended up replacing the safety and safety screw with the ones I pre-bought. Both are worn, I don't think the screw was originally for this purpose. Took some slow working and cleaning to get the new screw to seat all the way but it did with no issues. I think I'll just keep the extractor just in case.
It won't be going back together today. The barrel and receiver are pretty clean but the bolt and magazine assemblies are a mess. Looking like a two or three day project since it will be evenings only after today.
Couldn't stand it. All the metal parts are clean. Stock still drying from the citristrip. I'm thinking this is actually an 1890 as the rear sight doesn't appear to be altered and it is for the new cartridge. New safety and screw fit and function correctly. Looking at the photos I realize the safety screw was not all the way in when I received the rifle. A lot of the screws were loose.
First the packaging. Impressive:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Ma2zpXw-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../ndYISfa-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../1wJkd3F-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../WgXxSJP-1.jpg
The reveil:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Pt67zuX-1.jpg
Before cleaning:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../qGPVClo-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../uPTxNtc-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../LUpZFqI-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Mt8nSV1-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../Oaj3fio-1.jpg
Bent over front volley sight
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../IyfUVsx-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../rffof9p-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../oRApBZu-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../74SXZND-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../TOUfxMx-1.jpg
Only missing part:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../GnnIUYD-1.jpg
The safety and screw:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../bbIx2wt-1.jpg
Under the wood. This is not rust, it's hard grease:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../1cPH5kk-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../1ZwGOCi-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../9Yjd8eK-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../vyp8mZP-1.jpg
Actually looks really good, just needs some love and attention.
So...which cartridge does this take? The round nose bullet? Not the later pointed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
For the 8x50r cartridge they never adopted a pointed bullet. Originally in 1888 it was black powder, then in 1890 they updated to a semi-smokeless powder, hence the change in the rear sights. Most 1888 Mannlichers were updated with a plate screwed onto the rear sight to change the sight settings to reflect the new loadings ballistics, which were then called the 88/90 rifles. When they were manufactured 1890 and later they didn't need to place a plate on the rifles rear sights as they were already set for the new cartridge, hence the M90 rifle designation (not to be confused with the Mannlicher M90 carbines which were the basis for the M95 series of rifles and carbines). They also did update the cartridge one more time in 1893 to completely smokeless and it provided a slightly better performance then the semi-smokeless loading but they didn't feel it really needed a change to the rear sights.
Historically I am not sure changing that volley sight would be 100% correct. Most nations after Austria-Hungary seized to use them and either took them off the rifles or didn't care for them (Ethiopia clearly chose the latter). Either way I am excited to see how this turns out.
Still not sure on the designation. I do not think there ever officially was an 1890 rifle. The 1890 is a carbine which is completely different. So this is probably an 1888/90 which was produced after 1890. I have not found a date on it. The rear sight is original to the rifle and was manufactured that way without putting correcting side plates on it.
sliding rear volley sight now works. It was just tight and gunked in place.
I put it together this morning and put a coat of BLO on the stock. Stock originally would have been a very nice one, it has extensive tiger striping. It's just so beat up it will never be "pretty" again. The stock has the same wear as the metal. It is thinner everywhere there is not a barrel band.
It needs a few more coats of BLO and it should be good to go. Have to find some more. My old can finally is running out.
As for cartridge, it would be the round nosed bullet. If I'm reading things correctly, it could use the later ammunition but it isn't recommended. The falling block "lug" is not designed for the higher pressure. I'm not sure if the clips will work in it either. Clips from it will work in later rifles so you would think so but it doesn't mention is later ones will work in this.
Here are the current pics. Needs a lot more BLO. Can't see the tiger striping in the photos. Has an odd dark streak that runs the full length of the stock. It is the grain and present on both sides. Probably was a nice looking one when new. Serial number showed up on the stock when cleaned but I can't read any of it.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../XHUa6nG-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../JBrqTlQ-1.jpg
Looks exactly as she should - been around the world working hard its whole life just looking for someone to take care of her. She has found a good home!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
Just wondering, you guys both say round nose...I have a clip of the pointed ones here and was wondering if that was the rifle it went to...Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
The pointed round is 8x56r which was purposely designed so you couldn't chamber it in the 8x50r rifles to prevent them from blowing up. The Mannlicher 88 action is why they never updated the cartridge until the 30s as it couldn't handle more pressure than what the M93 cartridge put out.
Pointed ones have the Nazi eagle on them? Produced it 1938? Seem to be pretty common.
So the pointed ones won't chamber. I was meaning to investigate that. Now I'm really curious.
Results of the experiment:
A full clip of 8x56r will load and lock in place so that answers the clip question.
The first round will strip out of the clip.
The second round was jambed deep into the magazine with the point hard into the front of the magazine. I suspect rounds 3, 4 and 5 are also wedged in there. The pointed bullets are too long
Hitting the clip extractor immediately pushes it up and out but the points of the bullets catch on the rear of the receiver and you have to mess with the bullets to get the clip out.
I attempted to chamber a round by pushing it in with my finger. It would not go all the way in. Possibly still full of gunk, but the neck could be different, haven't looked into that. It was approximately 1/16th of an inch protrusion.
I did not attempt to close the bolt on a round. Don't need that kind of potential excitement.
Mine don't have an eagle but they were made in '44. Clip has an superimposed H A...over each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
The ones with the eagle are Austrian. These are the only ones I've ever seen. Hungary and Bulgaria also produced the ammo. Any possibility it is AH rather than HA? AH is Hungarian made. ML is Bulgarian as is BO.
They are superimposed, one lies directly over the other, on top of each other. I believe Hungarian, would make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
The 8x56r cartridge was also designed to have the same overall length (or pretty close) as the 8x50r cartridge so you could keep the same magazines, clips, and rifles with only having to modify the chambers (and potentially rear sights). This was accomplished by having a shorter spitzer bullet and bumping up the cartridge length as the original round nose bullets were exceptionally long leaving a lot of space to make up with the shorter bullet. Fairly smart what they did, and it avoided the issues the Italians faced when they adopted the 7.35x51 cartridge over the 6.5 as you could chamber both rounds in their service rifle, firing the bigger bullet in the smaller barrel could be pretty dangerous though.
I have a Terni M35 Short Rifle, 1940 dated, Finn marked in 7.35mm Carcano and also a well worn M91 Cavalry Carbine made at Brescia, 1893 dated in 6.5mm Carcano. I measured the neck diameters of several rounds of each caliber (original Italian military ammo) and the 7.35mm averaged about .030" larger in diameter than the 6.5mm. The minimum I have is .028" difference. There is no way the 7.35mm will chamber in the 6.5 mm rifle, well maybe if I helped it along with a five pound sledge hammer. It's a pretty tiny control group but that's what I found. Tom
There is no way a 7.35 will chamber in a 6.5 rifle . I do not know how that myth got started , but a 30 cal bullet is nowhere close to a 26 cal bullet in dia .
The stock has arrived at that place I like. Nice soft glow and no stickiness. Took about 5 coats of BLO. I'm replacing the magazine well. It was the one area I was not really happy with on the rifle. It has some fairly heavy pitting and it just bothers me. Replacement isn't that much but I expect I'll have some finish issues. Probably have to remove it so it looks right. I'll see when it gets here. I have to swap out all internals but they are all in good shape. Ordered the missing screw so that will be taken care of also. Still waiting on the sling. Still can't find a bayonet.
Sounds like a fun project!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aragorn243
The rifle is now complete with the exception of the bayonet. Sling came yesterday and the screw and magazine came today. I figured I'd have to fix the finish on the new magazine but I'm going to leave it alone. Someone else wants it to match the pitted, dented piece of crap original will be here for them to swap out.
I still don't have a bayonet but here it is all cleaned up. Repro sling, no missing parts.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../jrDZITv-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../VZYH3Ia-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../b90wjlB-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../oLSaaYs-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../uCwCPzw-1.jpg
Very nice!! Looks exactly as it should - experienced but cared for. Well done!
Looks good, pretty clean.
Very nice example! Love the history. Would have been Austrian-Hungarian before being either captured or given as war reparations to Italy, then subsequently reissued to the Italians who served in Ethiopia, followed by being captured/used by the Ethiopians after that. That rifle could likely tell a few stories!