Comparison of 3 chambers

I have 3 lee enfields, all No. 4's. The newest to me is also the newest. I bought it still mummy wrapped. The bolt handle had worn its way out of the wrapper, the area around the serial and the muzzle had been peeled back for inspection at some point long ago. When I got it home, I gently put my cheap borescope down the muzzle end to take a look. the first couple inches were "dry", but the rest of the barrel was full of cosmoline. I carefully cleaned just the first couple inches to make sure that what I saw there wasn't dried cruddy cosmoline. Indeed, it was light surface rust. The exposed bolt handle didn't look new anymore either. So I decided I would unwrap it, clean it up, and shoot it. I haven't shot it yet, and thought I would post for posterity what a factory new chamber looks like, compared to wartime use and heavy cordite erosion.

Here is the first and worst. First two pics are at the start of lands. Max length to ogive (Hornady 150gr used) is 2.583. The base of the bullet just barely remains in the case mouth
Attachment 115748Attachment 115749Attachment 115750Attachment 115751

Next up is my first enfield...named Doug after the soldier who seems to have scratched/doodled his name in the butt. Max length to ogive is 2.484. bore looks better than the outside faired over the years...saw some service in the wet places.
Attachment 115752Attachment 115753Attachment 115754Attachment 115755

Last...a brand new unfired rifle. Max length to ogive is 2.477. Not the bad chatter marks when the freebore area was cut.
Attachment 115756Attachment 115757Attachment 115758Attachment 115759

I've shot reasonably good groups with the first 2 rifles and hand loads, but haven't taken the new one out yet.

Thank you very much this is very interesting. You have made me want to go and check mine! Just need to acquire the OAL gauge, wait some...

If you use open base projectiles free bore has no meaning you only need 6" of rifling to stabilize the bullet.

Easy enough to make an OAL gauge Michael. Just get a piece of welding rod or similar; drill out the primer pocket to suit the diameter of the rod.
Fit an electrical "domino" connector to the rod. Fit your ogive to the case, chamber it and push the rod through the primer pocket to move the ogive fully into contact with the lands.
Slide the domino up to the rim and tighten the screws. Remove the round and you can measure the OAL.

Modified cases are easy to make. For the Hornady gauge, this is the correct tap.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0195UFBUY

---------- Post added at 02:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:09 PM ----------

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 30Three

Easy enough to make an OAL gauge Michael. Just get a piece of welding rod or similar; drill out the primer pocket to suit the diameter of the rod.
Fit an electrical "domino" connector to the rod. Fit your ogive to the case, chamber it and push the rod through the primer pocket to move the ogive fully into contact with the lands.
Slide the domino up to the rim and tighten the screws. Remove the round and you can measure the OAL.

---

it would be nice to have one a bit sturdier. the inside rod on the Hornady is flimsy plastic. Handle with care and it works fine.

I found a new old stock Long butt that matches the new rifle perfectly. It came with a normal length, but I'm excessively tall and figured I might as well tailor it just for me. Fitting went exactly as described in Peter's butt fitting writeup. The new one was slightly oversized, and only went in the socket about half way. I used a thin layer of white grease (thinned with mineral spirits) to show the contact points and, with a scraper and file kept at it until it went all the way in with a light tap on the mallet.
I then turned my attention to the rim of socket and edge of the butt.
Now, Peter's article says 1/16 inches or 2mm. Looking at the rifle, I this would be excessive. Using feeler gauges on the original butt tightened on the rifle, it has a visible gap and is ~0.3mm all the way around. My other 2 enfields are ~0.4mm. Using a smooth-edged file, I relieved the edge of the new long butt to a gap of ~0.4mm all around - and I am happy.
Next...fitting the butt plate on the new butt...I'll let you know how it goes.

Butts were not something changed "in the wild".

As you noticed, the ferrule (socket) is tapered, as is the wooden bit that plugs into it. At the factory and in bigger workshops, they had a special press that drove the very-well linseed-oil-saturated butt into the body until the "tenon" was very hard up against the flat steel internal face of the ferrule. Then the stock bolt and washers were wound in until they squeaked. There IS supposed to be a small gap between the exterior rear of the receiver ferrule and the "wrist" of the butt, otherwise chunks will eventually start chipping off.

If your bore is as "toasted" as it looks, your only hope is "special brew" ammo or a new barrel.

And as Bindi said, use open-based bullets if you can find them. These rifles are NOT immortal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

If your bore is as "toasted" as it looks, your only hope is "special brew" ammo or a new barrel.

---

which of the 3? the first two actually shoot really good with the Hornady 150gr flat base SPs with mild loads. I can easily get a 3-4" group off the bench with each of those. I guess we have another outlier of "toasted" barrels that shoot just fine. The third rifle with the chatter marks from the throat cutting is brand new and never fired, took it out of the wrap for reasons stated.

The tenon on the long butt fits great now - I would say tighter than the originals. It bottoms out with some love taps with the the gap reported above. The butt plate is going to take some work as its milling is both slightly off.

Are your measure measurements OAL or base to ogrove?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micheal Doyne

Are your measure measurements OAL or base to ogrove?

---

base to ogive, with the Hornady bullet comperator.
just looking at the position of the cannelure says it all...the first, in the first rifle, you can see a Parker sling swivel on the action screw. somebody likely shot a loooot of surplus cordite ammo through it as a target rifle before it got to me. There was a rectangular putty like bedding material midway down under the barrel - and slivers of waxed cloth patch under the handgaurd tenons to keep the wood tight. I have threads on cleaning up and shooting the first 2 rifles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ssgross

I can easily get a 3-4" group off the bench with each of those.

---

At 300-400 yards ?

100 yds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ssgross

100 yds.

---

Unless the barrels are badly worn, or are not fitted and bedded properly you should be getting you should be getting half of those figures.

Are all your screws tight ?, is the barrel lift poundage correct ? Furniture correctly fitted ?

3"-4" at 100 yards is 6"-8" at 200 yards.
The maximum acceptable allowance was a 6" x 6" at 200 yards.

No 4 RIFLE TESTING
For the No 4 Rifle, the accuracy test was the same at 100ft ten per cent of all rifles were then fired at 200 yds when six of seven shots had to fall in a rectangle 6in x 6in , the point of mean impact having to be within 3 inches of the point of aim in any direction. Ten per cent of rifles fired at 200 yds were again fired at 600 yds when 6 out of seven shots had to be in a rectangle 18 inches x 18 inches the permissible deviation of point of mean impact being 9 inches up or down, or left or right. Two per cent of rifles were fired from the shoulder, ten rounds being fed into the magazine by charger and fired rapid to test “feeding up” and ejection. After these tests the barrel was inspected to ensure that there was no expansion in the bore or chamber and that it shaded correctly from end to end. (Was not bent)


That was the maximum, a properly assembled rifle would be around half-of that.

With my Savage No4 Mk1, lying prone I am getting around 1MoA.
Two warming rounds (at 10 O'Clock) and then 5 rounds

Wind Right to Left 12-15mph, ammunition 174gr Prvi FMJ, lying prone with elbow support.

Thanks much for the quote from the standard.
I haven't played with the bedding of either of those not-new rifles, nor have I done any load testing to tune. I don't expect much from the "target" rifle with all that cordite erosion. The other one ("Doug") saw some very wet service and the stock shows it.
Here is my thread for the "target" rifle. https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=72890&page=1. There is a 3 shot target from 100yds towards the end, with my "test" load data, chosen only because it was from the middle of the mild data from one of my data books. It took a few trips to get this rifle on paper as the front sight was loose in it's dovetail, and was the staked type.
Here is the thread for the other rifle (my first enfield, and my first post on milsurps)...https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=69781. There is 25yd target there with a 1MOA group, but I get ~3-4" at 100yds.

I took a look at a could of my No4 AOL readings,
Using BSE Mk7 bullets
Lee Metford 3.371
No4 Longbranch 3.375
N4 (T) Savage (Fulton regulated) 3.175

Using Hornady RN .312
No4 Longbranch 3.150
N4 (T) Savage (Fulton regulated) 2.949