No. 4 MK I T Sporter *PICS*

Hello gents - I just came into this No. 4 sporter that seems to have all of the hallmarks of a former T sniper. In my miniscule experience I made the judgement that it was likely an original H&H conversion and not a fake based on the fact that someone attempted to dress it down from its sniper configuration as opposed to dressing it up and passing it off as a real deal rifle.

Just seems less likely someone would try and fake a sniper and put it in sporter configuration but hell I guess anything is possible. Someone may have sportered a fake at some point!

Easy to get in the weeds here so I figured I'd consult the experts who are more likely to recognize the minutia of the stamping and the milling and everything else that goes into verifying provenance.

The barrel has been, sadly, cut down to 24" so that will obviously need to be replaced. But I've got a good bracket from Roger (and a set of Fultons pads that I guess I wont need). Warren has kindly taken a look at the reproduction RSM MK III scope I recently purchased so hoping that Chinese tube will be useable and collimate within acceptable limits. I have a nice set of timber but part of me would like to try and rescue the buttstock and keep the serial along the wrist. Too bad the S51 is obliterated - if it was ever there that is.

Based on the images how does it look to you? Worthy of a restore?

I've included an imgur link just in case the photos dont upload properly

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

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I'm no expert; but that looks like the real thing to me. I'm expect our resident expert's will agree; (or put us right).
Looks like a great one to restore and worth the investment of a new barrel. I would love a project like that!

It would make a lovely restoration project. It is as honest as the day is long. Just a shame that Bubba got at it. However, the rifle body is unmolested, it retains its original bolt, complete with zero bolt head & so you have the basics for a nice rebuild. It also has its correct rear sight which is a bonus. You'll need a barrel, a set of woodwork, & some furniture such as barrel bands, triangular front trigger guard swivel & so on........but it is all doable.

If you don't want it I'll give it house room.........!

Thrawnformbi,

Looks like you bought it. I saw that one earlier today. Appears to be a very worthy restoration project. Congratulations!!

Highly restorable, and you could probably restore the barrel to full length with an over-bored sleeve made from the end of a junked barrel. Turn the existing one down in a lathe up to half way through the foresight lugs, then turn and bore the sleeve to fit and epoxy or solder on so that the other "half" of the foresight lugs are on the sleeve and they "meet in the middle" so that the join is centered on and covered by the foresight base. The base will then help to hold it all together. A thermal fit would an option: cool the barrel and warm the sleeve and drive on. With a sufficiently large counter-bore it should be quite safe to shoot IMO.

Lovely. I'd definitely keep the buttstock, and might consider keeping the forestock too. I've got better at replacing, splicing, and matching the missing bits of forestocks than I have at bedding rifles. If it's going to be shot, and accuracy is important to you (and with a 4T I'm sure it is), the bedding is a consideration.
Cheers,
Burton

Thanks for all of your input so far chaps. I am committed to undoing as much of bubbas work as possible. Once the buttstock was removed I noticed that it still retains the serial number stamp. A quick wipe with turpentine also showed a much crisper scope number stamp so I'm adamant about making the buttstock serviceable. I've had to remove a considerable amount of wood to glue in a patch but I think with a few brass pins it should hold fine. I generally use West Epoxy at varying viscosities for my wood repairs but decided to go classic wood glue this time around as I got the block in very very tight. I used a padded vise to fit the block tight. Unfortunately I didn't have a large enough piece of walnut so I was forced to laminate a few pieces to make a block thick enough. Also milled out the wood patch in the swivel recess.



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Nice clean wood and a good fit with waterproof wood glue and that is not going anywhere. If you plan to take it to Burma then maybe a couple of hardwood pegs would help.

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Ready for some stain and RLO.

Hello chaps - finished up this restoration and thought I'd share some photos. I still need to make the appropriate colored 1907 sling but this repro will do for now. I have the bridle leather on order from the Baker tannery in the UK to fashion up a set of lens caps and some proper linen thread from Barbour as well. I aged up the scope quite a bit because hell its a repro and that RSM finish is just off looking to begin with. Will be making some metal scope case straps today for Henry as well.

Thanks to Brian Dick for the rebarrel, Roger Payne for the bracket, Warren for the scope rebuild, and Henry Baxter for helping me track down a proper swivel.

Fitted NOS Savage forend (all I could find) but managed to save the original matching buttstock so very happy to keep those scope numbers intact. I've also replaced the Zamack buttplate with a proper brass.


Laminated breakdown of repro parts and sporter origins under the buttplate. Posted here as well to help keep its de-sportered provenance as crystal clear as possible.

Very happy with it for what it is. Enjoy and thank you all again for the help.

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She looks great. Well done..........another classic rifle dragged back from the precipice & restored to her former glory!

outstanding job, sir!

Tidy job - put a proper butt - plate on her (get rid of that 'orrible Zamak and replace it with brass) and she'll be another step closer.

Entirely your choice, but every BSA 1944 4T that I can remember coming across in unadulterated condition actually had a mazak butt plate on it, so it might be worth keeping & may well be the 'factory original' component.

Very nice!!

Nice recovery top job, but I did notice in the last set of pics #2 of the butt to wrist socket fitment there is no gap and with using the rifle eventually the recoil forces will start to chip the wrist where it meets the socket.
You can just make out the efforts in line with the 47C stamping, Peter Laidler made note that there should be a very small gap around the socket there to stop this happening as it is a wedge fit up with the butt to socket.
I am in no way picking on your efforts which is a great save :thup:, just outlining a possible condition that may come from repeated use.

I have read about lack of the gap in the wrist socket leading to chips, but in shooting thousands of rounds through my No 1 Mk III* and No 4 Mk II that don't have the gap I have yet to see it happening.

Are there pictures of what it looks like? I'm not doubting what PL says, I would just like to see what it looks like, especially with detail of what activities caused the chips.

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Entirely your choice, but every BSA 1944 4T that I can remember coming across in unadulterated condition actually had a mazak butt plate on it, so it might be worth keeping & may well be the 'factory original' component.

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Interesting, you have seen way more 4T's than I but I have not seen one with a Mazak butt plate - maybe they have all been 'messed with'.

Did H&H remove the BSA butt plate and replace it with a Mazak one, or did BSA change all of the T-rifles with one before despatch to H&H.
Where did H&H or BSA get the Mazak ones from ?

When PL viewed mine he did 'sign it off' as all original and didn't make any suggestion that it had the incorrect butt-plate - have I been conned ?

Yes, but how original is 'original'? Peter might not even have considered the butt plate worth mentioning.

I have a small quantity of original 4T butts in a drawer in the garage. I think some still bear their original (?) butt plates. I'll have a look at the makers for you Alan, if you would like. I had always simply assumed that with the UK in full scale wartime production brass/gun metal was by then (say, mid-warish) being conserved for where it was absolutely essential & mazak had become almost the norm. Part of the problem is how DO you tell if a butt plate is a replacement, especially if it has been fitted well & a long time ago?

I don't think there would have been any changing of butt plates at H&H or BSA. I'm sure both facilities had better things to do in the middle of a war. I just suspect that......let's just say 'a significant number' of No4's bore factory fitted mazak butt plates at this time so still bore mazak butt plates when they came out of H&H as finished 4T's.

Managed to grab a quick look. Of course, as mentioned above, how can we always be certain something wasn't switched over many years ago, especially if carried out by an armourer, or a civvy who knew what he was doing? But, as far as I can judge, none of these, apart from the shiny gunmetal butt plate on the left, has been replaced. Note four of the six are mazak, including one on a butt from a 41 Maltby.

I also checked a few of my rifles that came to hand; a 41 Maltby, a 41 BSA, a couple of 44 BSA's & a 45 BSA. One of the 44's & the 41 BSA bore gunmetal butt plates, but as I fitted them that doesn't tell us much. The other rifles all bear mazak butt plates.

Having said that, the butt at extreme right shows why there was a tendency to replace them with gunmetal or steel, as the mazak/zamak goes brittle & cracks with age............so in the post war refurbishments there may even have been a deliberate policy of replacing mazak....I don't know, but it would make sense. If Peter is inclined to chip in he may be able to shed some light on the issue.

These Two were in the same rack at one point and bear different butt plates, rack no7 is mine, but still like to get in touch with the person who has rack no5 ? Also worth making a note of the original scope number on the wrist and posting it in the rifles looking for scopes, with the help of a few forum members I managed to mate the original scope to the rifle, although not as straightforward as that and caused a few sleepless nights....

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Originally Posted by Roger Payne

Yes, but how original is 'original'? Peter might not even have considered the butt plate worth mentioning.

I have a small quantity of original 4T butts in a drawer in the garage. I think some still bear their original (?) butt plates. I'll have a look at the makers for you Alan, if you would like. I had always simply assumed that with the UK in full scale wartime production brass/gun metal was by then (say, mid-warish) being conserved for where it was absolutely essential & mazak had become almost the norm. Part of the problem is how DO you tell if a butt plate is a replacement, especially if it has been fitted well & a long time ago?

I don't think there would have been any changing of butt plates at H&H or BSA. I'm sure both facilities had better things to do in the middle of a war. I just suspect that......let's just say 'a significant number' of No4's bore factory fitted mazak butt plates at this time so still bore mazak butt plates when they came out of H&H as finished 4T's.

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Thank you, don't go to any trouble, as I say, you have seen many more 4T than I could dream about, so I'll take your word on them.
I think I have a Long Branch butt in my box of bits with a Mazak / Zamak plate on so could just swap it over.


Edit - hadn't noticed the thread had flipped over onto page 3 and you had already looked - many thanks, looks like a job for a rainy day. I'll put it on the list.

Only brass butt plate I have seen on a No4(T) were those on two trials No4(T)s I owned. Brass tends to be reflective - not a good choice for a sniper - unless he's given to reflection.;)

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Are there pictures of what it looks like?

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Here is a pic of the top of my 1944 47C T shows the gap pretty well all the others I have are a bit fuzzy & out of focus.
Mine has the Mazak butt plate as issued, I'm in agreeance with Surpmil reflective stuff could swiftly bring about the demise of a sniper.
I'm quite sure over the period of time with the hostilities it would have happened to the few snipers that did not take care.

Thanks Cinders.

I doubt the brass butt plate would reflect in sniper use. Snipers shouldn't be where their equipment reflects anything and the butt plate should be tight against the shoulder.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

Thanks Cinders.

I doubt the brass butt plate would reflect in sniper use. Snipers shouldn't be where their equipment reflects anything and the butt plate should be tight against the shoulder.

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So they shouldn't be out in the sun then? And keep the butt into the shoulder when crawling? :confused:

Preparing includes darkening anything reflecting. Except glass such as the telescope and binocular lenses. Crawling with protective stuff over all reflecting surfaces including barrel, bolt, magazine, sling brass, boots. Etc.

Keep out of the sun to prevent shine from surfaces, better concealment for movement and reflections, etc.

The same for scouts, an observation post.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

So they shouldn't be out in the sun then?

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Read one of the military pamphlets and you'll see exactly what they tell you about staying in shadows and such. It ain't like on television.

Why would a sniper polish any of his brass ?

If you don't polish your brass, it goes dull and eventually 'greenish'.
The copper reacts with oxygen, carbon dixode and water (all substances any soldier may come into contact with) and the chemical reaction produces verdigris

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Why would a sniper polish any of his brass ?

If you don't polish your brass, it goes dull and eventually 'greenish'.
The copper reacts with oxygen, carbon dixode and water (all substances any soldier may come into contact with) and the chemical reaction produces verdigris

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Repeated shouldering and recoil on tough wool or cotton jacket would naturally polish soft brass.

If i was a sniper i would want my brass but changed. All about reflection limitation.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

It ain't like on television.

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They TV & Hollywood often portray the hero though seriously wounded and having crawled a million miles wins the day, in all reality if one is in a conflict you'll only make one mistake.
Literature I have on my shelves emphasises the skill a sniper has to have patience beyond virtue and observation retention skills like a hawk coupled with a cast iron will to keep above any adversity they may encounter and from some of the do's I have read about are a force multiplier.
Hathcock and his observer kept a group of VC pinned down in a paddy field for a considerable length of time taking a heavy toll of those that risked a look or rabbit bolted for the fence line. Showing in effect with concealment and movement as they were copping some intense fire from the VC that the snipers were in control of that zone until they lit out of there.

I am nearly though the book "Backs To The Wall" By G D Mitchell, in this book I have taken a whole new appreciation of what the WWI soldier had to contend with Mitchell is the first person writer, its not embellished with glorious deeds but the stark realness of being one step from the grave, he did receive the MM and a battlefield commission.
He at one point came back to his troops to find one chaps nerves completely rattled and well he might have been as he had been buried 3 times that day by shell fire and dug out by his mates, another has Mitchell in a captured pill box as he said zeroed to the inch by the Germans artillery.
He had only just got inside when a artillery round struck near the doorway blowing them all flat inside after the dust had settled he went outside where four other chaps had been, they were just a mess of what used to some of his charges, other times he has details from his diary he kept.
The soft cover is available on line allot cheaper than the 1st Ed H/C I have.

Never believe what you see on TV - spot todays 'blooper' .................................

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Never believe what you see on TV - spot todays 'blooper' .................................

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Left handed M1917...... very rare

The butt plate on my own No4T has been blackened at some point, very dark around the edges but (no pun intended) I doubt a Sniper would be pointing the butt towards the enemy, more chance of getting a glare off the Scout Reg scope when observing etc.

Whats the consensus on on the L42 butt plates ? am sure mine is brass.

We're belabouring the point. However. If the butt plate was so crucial in shine, I'm certain it would have been replaced before being issued, or there would have been an instruction to the effect brass butt plates being replaced in service. I speculate it would take quite a long time to polish a brass butt plate in service just by being shouldered in between being on the ground many times. Etc.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

Read one of the military pamphlets and you'll see exactly what they tell you about staying in shadows and such. It ain't like on television.

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Don't watch television so can't help you there, but did correspond with a chap who was a sniper on Crete and he was out in the sun plenty.

I own the pams back to 1951, but pams are no more than that.

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Originally Posted by bigduke6

Whats the consensus on on the L42 butt plates ? am sure mine is brass.

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The two L42's my battery were issued with in 1973 had brass butt plates.

We did a lot of Northern Ireland training with 3RGJ who did all sorts of things with their issued small arms using "black nasty" in some cases to smother the wood parts and probably the butt plate.
In my unit you would get a bollocking if caught with "mixed" webbing, i.e. 58 pat water bottle in a 44 pat holder; what I'm trying to illustrate here is that some regiments had a culture of changing things like Aim Points sights on SLR's and carrying personal weapons, (later stopped) to suit their needs where other regiments like mine would just go by the book.

Mine is Brass, but who is to say if its original ?

No picture specifically of the butt, but it is clearly brass from the bit that can be seen.


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Yup. I suspect the vast majority of L42's will have brass butt plates.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

did correspond with a chap who was a sniper on Crete

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The difference here is we (trying to tell you) did sniper training and were in the units like Recce and Snipers...and the books give you direction. You discount pams but have no background. We ain't passing second hand info. I personally was in a sniper team overseas in '75. Some of these guys did lots of it.

You hopefully know what the point was about the limitations of training manuals.

But since you know so much about the Sight, Fixed Line for example, maybe you can explain what the manual means by preserving the setting while replacing it in the case?

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

....This sight could be employed on the Vickers, 81mm mortar as well so one class on this sight could teach three weapon courses the use of the same sight....

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Obvious nonsense, only the optical portion is the same between the two sights.

I'll say this as kindly as I can: it's more than thirty five years since I first heard you holding forth (in person) and your issues which were obvious to me then, are obvious to more people than you apparently realize.

:wave:

Well, it had to get personal, didn't it? I think we've covered the topic well. Bye.

Bob

A reminder ... :rolleyes:

Lots of great participation and diverging viewpoints, but some folks still need to read about our forum etiquette policy they agreed to under our Terms of Service Agreement" they electronically signed when they joined. ;)

Regards,
Doug