Gun show carbines

Went to a small antique gun show today and out of 10 carbines, 8 of them were still in the WW 2 configuration, and 2 of them were M1A1's, how did these guns skip the mod,s after WW2, no type 3 barrel bands, the eight of them still had the flip sights etc. were these carbines left overseas after the war ? are all of them fakes ? a few of them looked really good.
There were no rebuild stamps on the wood ? how would a carbine skip the rebuild after WW 2 ?
Are there any real Carbines out there that were left that way ? and how did did they get by ?
Thanks. :banghead:

I was wondering the same thing reference how any could have escaped the post WW2 refurbishment. Great question and thank you for asking it. I can't wait to see the answers from the experts here.

Most of the M1 and M1A1 carbines in NZ are in the early configuration as they were souvenirs of the Pacific campaign. Quite a few of them were also 'lost' by US troops stationed in NZ during the war and given away in appreciation of organised hunting trips. How US based carbines missed post-war upgrades, I don't know. Could they have been post-war imports before the Federal importer markings were required?

They could also have been "Corrected".

I think you are right Dave, I would like to think of these guns as being "corrected" rather then being faked, I like the looks of the org. carbines, and they are the ones that help win WW-2.
I noticed that the carbine that Audie Murphy used in WW-2 is on display somewhere in Texas with all the post war mods. on it, looks like they would have corrected that carbine for sure, ...just a thought.

PS: Just wondering what the feeling is from the members here, is it wrong to "correct" a carbine ? or should you just leave it the way it is ? I understand the Korean and Vietnam era. and I am leaving one of my two with the mods on them. Thanks for any comments.

It's been done for longer than one would think. Back in the '80s I needed a barrel and went to a man that bought all the carbines he could lay hands on. He stripped them to bits and separated parts, reassembled complete guns with corrected parts lists. This was back before there was too much public info on them, no internet. I remember when the ones with early features were available and they would be as released by the US gov't. I liked those, but if guys want to correct them it's fine as long as they don't try to sell them as original, which happens too much.

To be honest with you, that is why I love my Mixmaster Winchester carbine. It is nowhere near"correct", but as far as I know and can tell, it is exactly in the configuration it last left whatever military role it served, which was the way the military intended it because they cared nothing about collectibility whatsoever

'Corrected' is faked. It is the same thing as stamping new serial numbers on a rifle to make it 'all matching', and is about the same level of honesty. American arms have this issue because people refuse to accept how they were actually used (i.e. you stripped the rifles as sections, threw the parts into a pile and cleaned then threw them back together, not to mention the constant rebuilds/refurbishments) and refuse to accept how they left service. To each their own, but in my opinion it is the destruction of history, not the preservation of it.

Could they be corrected? Maybe and then again maybe not. It all depends on its history. Could have been a bring back. Could have been issued to a secondary group where they just sat in racks. Could also have been issued to a National Guard unit that just had too many and just used the updated ones with the others sitting in storage.

During rebuild the unit doing the rebuilding would run out of the new required replacements and just left what was on the carbine as is. Intent to replace it at a later date that just did not happen. The White bags are a prime example. 50% were fully rebuilt. 40% partly rebuilt with many parts changed and the 5 to 10% with no changes at all. Some officers like their carbines with the flip sight so never had it updated. There are reasons for a carbine not being corrected but still being an original.
The vast majority of carbines do not fall under any of this and have been modified back to what was thought to be original.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

'Corrected' is faked. It is the same thing as stamping new serial numbers on a rifle to make it 'all matching', and is about the same level of honesty. American arms have this issue because people refuse to accept how they were actually used (i.e. you stripped the rifles as sections, threw the parts into a pile and cleaned then threw them back together, not to mention the constant rebuilds/refurbishments) and refuse to accept how they left service. To each their own, but in my opinion it is the destruction of history, not the preservation of it.

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I was drafted in 1965, spent six months in the 5th Inf Div in Colorado and then on to Vietnam for a year (66-67). Basic training was at Ft Ord Calif with good Infantry Cadre. I never once heard of anyone or any group of soldiers taking their weapons apart and dumping the parts into a pile and then putting them back together. That may have occurred in some NG unit where a bunch of civilians got dressed up and played Army for 6 weeks every year, but in the real Army I never saw anything like that.

Saw it all the time in the Real Marine Corps, granted a much later time frame 1982-2012. Group of Marines from a Platoon go to the rifle range for a week, have to clean their weapon for 3 consecutive days after that. They would bring their rifles back to the shop, dump all the parts together in a solvent tank parts basket with no regard to what parts belonged to who. Used to drive me crazy!!!

This is basically exactly what FN did en masse after the war.
Agreed, troops in the field likely didn’t do it this way.
However, if you were doing it on an industrial level, throwing all the parts into bins is the only way that makes sense.

I understand that at boot camp in the Corps this was done a lot. I'm giving Juggies a pass because the Marine Corps lives and breathes the rifle. I knew a lot guys that were in the NG and when they were down at Camp Roberts selling mints and cookies they would take their M1s apart and put the parts in the washing machine, then put them back together. That shows you how important their weapons were to them. Not to disparage them because heck, one of my friends fought in the battle of Berkeley. When I was REFRAD at Ft Lewis after 22 months, they said that I was still going to be in the Army Reserves and would have to do six weeks a year at Roberts, I told the guy, "I'm never doing this again, I'm never putting that uniform on again, If you want me to do that reserve $ you'll have to arrest me." They had a little pow-wow and told me that they'd put me in a control group. Four years later they mailed me my discharge. I wonder how many guys had to do that six weeks a year when they could have just said "No".

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

I was drafted in 1965, spent six months in the 5th Inf Div in Colorado and then on to Vietnam for a year (66-67). Basic training was at Ft Ord Calif with good Infantry Cadre. I never once heard of anyone or any group of soldiers taking their weapons apart and dumping the parts into a pile and then putting them back together. That may have occurred in some NG unit where a bunch of civilians got dressed up and played Army for 6 weeks every year, but in the real Army I never saw anything like that.

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WWII isn't Vietnam. I don't sit there and say how I have been trained to do things in the 2010s-present is how things were done in the 20 years prior (especially with different weapons systems, a variety of different levels of training, and different elements). Easy example of this which is documented is using the Reising SMGs which had carefully fitted parts which would get mixed up when the troops would clean them and help contribute to their failure on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

'Corrected' is faked. It is the same thing as stamping new serial numbers on a rifle to make it 'all matching', and is about the same level of honesty. American arms have this issue because people refuse to accept how they were actually used (i.e. you stripped the rifles as sections, threw the parts into a pile and cleaned then threw them back together, not to mention the constant rebuilds/refurbishments) and refuse to accept how they left service. To each their own, but in my opinion it is the destruction of history, not the preservation of it.

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While I was in the Army 20 years after WW2, there was still a lot of ww2 training and culture in the Army. Almost all of our cadre were Korean War and WW2 vets, my Sergeant in VN was at Bastogne and was shot by the Germans. We still had plenty of WW2 weapons floating around, Grease Guns, Thompsons, our 50 cals, Rocket launchers, and of course all of our 45 pistols. There were still WW2 C Rats in the supply depots and almost all of the 105 ammunition that was shot in our camp for the first year was WW2 vintage brass cased, later we started using wrapped steel Korean war stuff.. Your post makes it sound like Americans all used that same method of cleaning and I'm saying that while some outfits may have done it that way, not everyone did. Just because there was a wholesale mix up of parts done at FN after the war as a make work project for Belgians, doesn't mean everyone did it that way. Many thousands of new carbines built in 1944 spent their life in a depot completely untouched by the rebuild program (I have two, both complete original guns). Many rebuild facilities failed to follow regulations on new or fairly new guns as a matter of course. Most high mile carbines were supposed to have the muzzles reamed out, yet very few did, Type 2 bands were supposed to be changed to type 3 bands and lots of them were left as is. And any guns with hard to see # were supposed to be remarked on the front portion of the receiver and very few were. There are still many complete guns from 1944 out there many were NRA $20 purchases straight off the rack at depots.

I agree with your views on "Correcting". The carbines were doomed because parts of the puzzle were marked and some folks found the puzzle irresistible. The outcome of part swapping guns was predicted and it happened as people assumed it would.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

'Corrected' is faked. It is the same thing as stamping new serial numbers on a rifle to make it 'all matching', and is about the same level of honesty. American arms have this issue because people refuse to accept how they were actually used (i.e. you stripped the rifles as sections, threw the parts into a pile and cleaned then threw them back together, not to mention the constant rebuilds/refurbishments) and refuse to accept how they left service. To each their own, but in my opinion it is the destruction of history, not the preservation of it.

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M1s have become a new hobby for me. I’m now to the point in my life where I can have the funds to purchase them even at today’s outrageous prices. I have thought long and hard about this very topic. Sorry don’t mean to steal the thread. The ODC in me wants an all correct carbine. Is there a problem with that? At first I didn’t think so but I’ve done a lot of reading about it. Even bought a few parts to swap out. But the more and more I think about this I’ve come to the opinion that “as issued” is more significant than anything. I’ll give you an example. I recently purchased an M1. It’s as issued, (hate the term mixmaster). It has an Inland Barrel and Receiver along with some SG, U, and post WWII parts. The stock is early Underwood per the cartouche markings. But I was puzzled. How could it be early underwood but have what appears to be a 10 inch cut for the operating handle?? So I looked closer. Sure enough it became apparent to me the extra 3ish inches that made the cut almost 10 inches was done not at the factory but what appears to be in the field. It’s not a clean cut, and it’s not without knife marks. Now the stock does have an armory cartouche on it, but the cut seems too uneven along that 4 inch surfaces to be armory. Could it be? Sure. But what a better historical story to think it COULD have been done in the field by a solider. That’s just one of many stories the carbine has as issued. Changing out the parts IMHO alters the history of the piece. And that’s just what it is....a piece of history.8

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

Just because there was a wholesale mix up of parts done at FN after the war as a make work project for Belgians, doesn't mean everyone did it that way.

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Except for this part, good job trying to teach the OP that a line in a TM is not the same as budget authority or a work order. I don't know, are we the only ones that understand the effects of the devastating budget cuts immediately postwar?

The ETO General Board in their early postwar report describes an "...emasculation of Ordnance service. Personnel received as replacements for high points ordnance personnel were generally unskilled and unsuited to the task of receiving, repairing, and preparing for shipment the volume of materiel that flooded Ordnance installations."

So it was the loss of experienced personnel that led Ordnance to FN's door. Without FN (and many other private concerns) even more ordnance materiel would have rusted away in supply dumps and on railroad sidings. Units redeploying to the Pacific packed their own gear and the occupation force had adequate ordnance support (thanks to a year's worth of planning), but that left all the gear formerly carried by the nearly 800k GIs being discharged upon arrival back in the U.S.

Redeployment was, of course, an ETO top priority and every nerve was strained - either to get units packed up and on their way to the Pacific or demobilizing GIs on their way home to resume making Buicks and babies.

firstflabn,
I love your researching abilities ! :thup:

I don't know if you'd call it a cleaning party,
But when called upon to help unpack Small Arms and equipment, My Father said they used Kerosene and or Diesel to remove packing oils and grease (Never heard him say Cosmo), which ever they could get while in the Philippines. Gas was his favorite but was hard to get a hold of. Cut down Oil or Fuel barrels set up for 1st clean, next barrels had cleaner fuel for 2nd clean off. All ended up being fire starter and used oils saved to skim the swamp water to kill mosquito larvae.
He only spoke about putting the bigger stuff like barreled receivers in the cleaning barrels, but also said Serial numbers were kept track of by 'Clip Boarders'. And hanging them to drip dry. Never heard any mention of the smaller parts. Other than there were plenty of guys set up in barracks tents to mess with the small detailed stuff. I do recall him saying they caught H3ll for using the used Diesel or kerosene to start fires to burn off the crates... because of the black smoke and smell.

He had bigger heavy equipment to tend to. So I doubt he spent much time doing the above.

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Another thing to consider, its actually a compliment that all these M1s are 'mixed up' as it meant the parts were made right. The whole reason for serializing equipment was to do with keeping the fitted parts together. By time we started making smokeless powder firearms many of the designs were more or less interchangeable on parts but the parts numbering was carried on from the earlier hand-fitted era. Quite a feat to make that many firearms which you can practically swap any part out to another gun and it will function fine. It is also part of what drives collectors insane as when they were updating or going through refit it was a matter of changing out worn or not updated parts, and replacing them with the new updated ones. Extremely practical, just not collector friendly as the earlier parts then become much rarer.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

They could also have been "Corrected".

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BOOM.

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Originally Posted by firstflabn

Except for this part, good job trying to teach the OP that a line in a TM is not the same as budget authority or a work order. I don't know, are we the only ones that understand the effects of the devastating budget cuts immediately postwar?

The ETO General Board in their early postwar report describes an "...emasculation of Ordnance service. Personnel received as replacements for high points ordnance personnel were generally unskilled and unsuited to the task of receiving, repairing, and preparing for shipment the volume of materiel that flooded Ordnance installations."

So it was the loss of experienced personnel that led Ordnance to FN's door. Without FN (and many other private concerns) even more ordnance materiel would have rusted away in supply dumps and on railroad sidings. Units redeploying to the Pacific packed their own gear and the occupation force had adequate ordnance support (thanks to a year's worth of planning), but that left all the gear formerly carried by the nearly 800k GIs being discharged upon arrival back in the U.S.

Redeployment was, of course, an ETO top priority and every nerve was strained - either to get units packed up and on their way to the Pacific or demobilizing GIs on their way home to resume making Buicks and babies.

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I appreciate praise/criticism from you in any form. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the work done by the FM personnel was a make work project to the extent that they had plenty of trained skilled people twiddling their thumbs and they were broke and hungry. It makes sense that if you are going to farm out this work, might as well have honest skilled people doing it. I would imagine that after 4 years of working for the Germans they were very willing and proud to be working for the Yanks. Since Monty had gone off to Market Garden and ignored the Scheldt river access to Antwerp, the Army was denied use of one of the finest ports in the area which they desperately needed and the Belgians were denied all of the goodies that go with having a major port, food, gasoline, and all the stuff the Army uses. The US owed Belgium a favor. Maybe that huge contract was the favor? That one great photo of the FN folks working away suggests "Make work" lots of people doing something others standing there with their arms crossed. One thing is unmistakable, they were all ****ed off which would definitely be the case after working for the Boche. In any event, the task was an important one and with the Japanese to deal with, these weapons were essential.

Getting back to the OP.
I kinda look at it this way, from what I have read and looked up on the internet on carbines over the years, put them in this order:
#1. This would be a WW-2 configured carbine that has never been touched or missed with since WW-2, which there are prob. about 10 total, and I doubt that.
#2. One that has been corrected, with org. WW-2 parts back to it's org. configuration. and that's about 99% of so-called org. WW-2 carbines out there.
#3. One that has all the post war mod's.
They are all still WW-2 carbines, and putting one back to it's org. WW-2 configuration is not faking one, it's just correcting it back to the way it was made for WW-2 .
And if you have family members or friends that used them in Korea or Vietnam, then the post war carbines with all there mod's are the way to go, I like all of them,.
But, for some one to say that if you change the configuration from the way the Military last used them, that it is now a fake carbine, is just BS...IMHO.
I really like all the comments, and I agree there are a lot of experts here, and I have learned a lot over the years, and all of the above is just one man's opinion, and I am still trying to learn.
It is the little gun that help win WW-2. ;)

Quick math...... say 6 million made, 99% upgraded ..... leaves what about 60,000 possible Originals.
All done without a calculator, I'm too tired to find one.

Funny though Louis, That 'Everyone' seems to have 1 or 2 Originals.

Me ? If I've got a bad sear in my Underwood, I'm looking for a Underwood sear to replace it.
Feel lucky we can still own them.

Painter,
You are right, I should have been more clear, I meant 99% of those "clamed" to be org. not of the 6 million carbine's made. ;)

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Originally Posted by painter777

Quick math...... say 6 million made, 99% upgraded ..... leaves what about 60,000 possible Originals.
All done without a calculator, I'm too tired to find one.

Funny though Louis, That 'Everyone' seems to have 1 or 2 Originals.

Me ? If I've got a bad sear in my Underwood, I'm looking for a Underwood sear to replace it.
Feel lucky we can still own them.

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What's even more amazing is all of the people with "numbers matching" carbines.......

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Originally Posted by lboos

Painter,
You are correct, and I don't have a calculator ether, so Ill change my est. to "0" original's carbines. ;)

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I've seen several originals here on the Carbine Forum over the years. Spend some time searching and you should be able to find a few - complete with pictures and data sheets verifying the parts. I believe I have (2) originals, although one of them has two damaged parts on it. The other one I've had for 5 years and have never started a thread on - yet! - Bob

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Originally Posted by lboos

Getting back to the OP.
I kinda look at it this way, from what I have read and looked up on the internet on carbines over the years, put them in this order:
#1. This would be a WW-2 configured carbine that has never been touched or missed with since WW-2, which there are prob. about 10 total, and I doubt that.
#2. One that has been corrected, with org. WW-2 parts back to it's org. configuration. and that's about 99% of so-called org. WW-2 carbines out there.
#3. One that has all the post war mod's.
They are all still WW-2 carbines, and putting one back to it's org. WW-2 configuration is not faking one, it's just correcting it back to the way it was made for WW-2 .
And if you have family members or friends that used them in Korea or Vietnam, then the post war carbines with all there mod's are the way to go, I like all of them,.
But, for some one to say that if you change the configuration from the way the Military last used them, that it is now a fake carbine, is just BS...IMHO.
I really like all the comments, and I agree there are a lot of experts here, and I have learned a lot over the years, and all of the above is just one man's opinion, and I am still trying to learn.
It is the little gun that help win WW-2. ;)

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I think there were more left in original configuration than 1%, just your odds of seeing them in the USA are much lower. Most the ones left intact would likely have been given away as war surplus/aid to foreign countries and thereby not really allowed back into country for the most part. For example I have seen two so far in my life, which were not 'corrected' or faked. One I suspect was from the Philippines, it was in really rough shape, hard to fake that type of wear over everything. The other I strongly suspect wasn't faked because my buddy bought it for way less than market value off someone who just had a M1 Carbine, and he didn't know what he had bought until I took a quick look at it.

I get that you don't like the idea your faking it, a lot of Americans seem to think that way, but doesn't change what your doing. If you are a collector it is about preserving history not altering it. Changing it because it suits your idea of history is altering it, not preserving it. I can't just take a Isreali K98k and take the 7.62 markings off it, rebarrel it to 8mm Mauser and call it a WWII K98k, even though your just 'changing the configuration back to WWII standard' and that's how it originally would have been. Your not correcting something if it isn't broken.

I've never bought into the 99% were rebuilt statements made and also remember not every carbine was totally rebuilt when its time came. There's so many variables with millions of carbines made that it would truly boggle the minds of those if they would take a step back and remember things like imperfect humans, lack of available parts, changing work requirements and possible time restraints just to name a few possibilities.

So that leads to a question for us novice collectors - what do you look for to determine if your carbine is original? I broke down my Underwood and completed a data sheet which revealed it has all of the correct parts it should have had when it left the factory. It needed a lot of love to bring it back to being a presentable and usable rifle. It looks original (patina, type 1, wear, etc.), the part diagram numbers say original, but how do I know it's original? This is a really interesting topic for me since I am currently looking at several other M1s for sale and I really wonder about my Underwood because it was a diamond in the rough when I got it and she became a true diamond when I finished her. After seeing some of the responses here, I now wonder how "original" she really is? Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

I get that you don't like the idea your faking it, a lot of Americans seem to think that way, but doesn't change what your doing. If you are a collector it is about preserving history not altering it. Changing it because it suits your idea of history is altering it, not preserving it. I can't just take a Isreali K98k and take the 7.62 markings off it, rebarrel it to 8mm Mauser and call it a WWII K98k, even though your just 'changing the configuration back to WWII standard' and that's how it originally would have been. Your not correcting something if it isn't broken.

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I don't think of my self as a serious carbine collector, I only own two, a m1 and an m1a1, I have been thinking about correcting one of them to it's org. WW-2 configuration using WW-2 parts, and I would never think about taking markings off. I hear a lot about if the govt. decides to add on some mod's that it would be "blasphemy" for anyone to dare change it, even though the govt. is the one who 1st altered the carbine, and we all understand why.
As far as your WW-2 K98K changes, that would not be a gun collector, that would be a real life bubba.
Anyway, thanks for your interesting thoughts, I always enjoy coming here, I learn something new every time. ;)

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Originally Posted by Singer B

So that leads to a question for us novice collectors - what do you look for to determine if your carbine is original? I broke down my Underwood and completed a data sheet which revealed it has all of the correct parts it should have had when it left the factory. It needed a lot of love to bring it back to being a presentable and usable rifle. It looks original (patina, type 1, wear, etc.), the part diagram numbers say original, but how do I know it's original? This is a really interesting topic for me since I am currently looking at several other M1s for sale and I really wonder about my Underwood because it was a diamond in the rough when I got it and she became a true diamond when I finished her. After seeing some of the responses here, I now wonder how "original" she really is? Thanks!

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The only way I can think of to truly know is to be good at looking for wear patterns. Seems to me if you find an early configured carbine, and the only wear is from early parts and not from later parts, that would be a good indication that it's original. Still doesn't answer the question completely though because two early parts could have been swapped out with two other early parts creating the same wear pattern for the most part. that's where you have to learn to become a detective and learn if there are any wear differences from the manufacturing differences of each of the makers. I have a relatively early Winchester that I know has its original barrel because receiver and barrel finish match perfectly and it has only had one witness mark on the barrel alignment in its entire life which if it had been rebarreled, you would expect two witness marks. if you can match wear patterns on every part in your carbine perfectly, and the finish and patina look the same, there's a good chance it would be original.Just my two cents

This is another issue with American arms, and actually most surplus in general is as time progresses what is original and what is added/changed/modified becomes harder and harder to tell. What did the original finishes look like? How where they surplussed? There isn't many left in the grease to buy anymore and the amount of people who pulled them out of the grease originally is slowly declining. Really makes it hard to say anything definitively. This is also part of the reason I tend to stick with odder military surplus firearms as the odds of them being messed with are significantly lower than the more popular ones.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

the amount of people who pulled them out of the grease originally is slowly declining. Really makes it hard to say anything definitively.

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This the reason the records and observations of 40+ years of information gathered by the Michigan Carbine Collectors, The Carbine Club, The Carbine Collectors Club Forum, Larry Ruth and countless individuals observations are so important.
Gov records, Ordnance records, Company records, Company printed newsletters for employees, Gov and Sub contracts researched, TM's, FM's and employees interviewed.
Hours upon hours at the Archives.
Collectors and volunteers who worked with the DCM then CMP to observe and document.
Thousands of Data sheets to look over for comparison. Also add the Original Carbines Auctioned by the CMP.

NOS barrels and parts here in the states and sent as support to WWII allies being pulled from the wrap with markings, finish and milling styles noted.
Knowing who used what type of finish and how they prepped the metal before finish was applied ? Was the Frt sight, rear sight and barrel band on or off when the metal was finished ? How a maker finish assembled the carbine ? The production dates ? Who used what part and when ? Did that maker ever use that type part ? Who transferred what part to who and when ? When did upgraded parts show up? When or were serial numbers assembled in order ? Look at how the same maker changed the front receiver markings over time. Or how the rear receiver markings changed over time and letter / number font / size changed. Same with parts markings... some changed over time.
You also have to Know and recognize the milling / machining capabilities in the 40's...... etc.

Just trying to point out there are many known factors we can look for to tell Originality.
A single part or even 2 changed 2 years after issue will have matching wear patterns.
But what if those 2 parts were never documented as being used by maker XXX ?

Ask firstflabn or Jim Mock how many hours they've spent researching the Archives?
Or the German, Bavarian, Austrian and other countries returns from the lend lease program.
I guarantee it will be more than most here have ever spent reading about a M1 carbine.

Not trying to be rude, just pointing out there are so many factors.......

To Add: You could fill a book on how different makers and Subs Staked the rear sight pin, Or the style and location 'If' they staked the rear sight to the dovetails. Rear Adj Sights- How were they staked to the dovetails and what style / shape was that stake mark at what point in production?
Front sight pin staking styles ?
Who did... Who didn't stake the front sight key? If staked how was it done - What did it look like? .... etc

I agree having to put this much effort in to prove Originality takes dedication and a lot of effort. But by doing so...... "Really makes it hard to say anything definitively" can be overcome. If they can figure out the early Egyptians and the Mayans, putting in the 'Time and 'Research' will give most all the ability to ID a Original as Issued M1 Carbine.

My Tip if you choose to take it, is to Study the Fake Reproduction Carbines. Once you learn those, you'll know a Original Carbine if your fortunate to come across one.
That's what I was told when I started. But I had a card up my sleeve, having my Fathers Winchester hanging on the wall from the Philippines.
Thank You to my Fathers 2 Aussie friends and Allies :cheers:

There were 12M Americans under arms during WW2 I had thought 8M but have recently read that it was 12. There were enough Carbines made to arm half of those people. As far as how many early configuration carbines made it through? It has to be thousands. It was the most stolen weapon of the war, that and 45s. Soldiers stole weapons and brought them home.
Let's say in Petaluma where I was raised the Army data Center during WW2 was called Two Rock. Let's say that the head medical officer at Two Rock was issued a carbine as part of the TOE. It sat in a locker all through the war and it was taken out once a year to qualify or the Doc said "No". Either way it was a safe queen. When the Army changed weapons, the carbine was sent to a depot and put in a rack along with thousands of other carbines. It didn't get rebuilt and it didn't get used. At that point it could have been sold through the NRA for $20 or could have been stolen out of Two Rock and no one the wiser. Bingo, an original configuration carbine. Or there could be a carbine made during 1944 that has some late features like type 2 band and type 2-3 sight. Left the factory that way. It was carried by an officer, never shot and when inspected would not come close to rebuilding. it went into a depot where it left in a white sack or an NRA sale. Another original gun.

Brian Q. Had a pretty fool proof way to identify an original gun, it has 100% of the correct parts and one that isn't. If it was a corrected faker, that AU recoil plate on my Winchester 5.6 would be so far gone so fast you wouldn't see it. Thus my Winchester is thought to be original. Underwood sent 5,000 recoil plates to Winchester in Nov of 1943, my carbine was made in Mar 1944 (and there's another w/ an AU plate, a mirror image of mine in the data base a few numbers off). My Inland I looked over myself. It has everything correct per Chris Albright's fine article but the HI handguard (Stock is also HI) is so close to being a reject I can't see how it made it through. The trench to use the sights is so off that it covers a good portion of the front sight. But Inland was in a hurry in Oct 1944 so it passed into the system. All finish is correct and the shadow is on the barrel with the line where the sand blasting stops on the receiver. I'm saying it is original and since it stays here it doesn't matter. I'd put that up to anyone to look it over and say it is a corrected gun.

If you think that part swapping is a sore subject, you should have been here 20 years ago.

I remember a lot of arguments about that in the early days on Jouster! Some people got really heated about any parts changing even replacement of damaged/broken parts! And back then, repro parts were fairly rare and easy to spot!

Where did you see these Carbines? I collect M1 Carbines and need more - Email removed, please use the PM feature.

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Originally Posted by lboos

Went to a small antique gun show today and out of 10 carbines, 8 of them were still in the WW 2 configuration, and 2 of them were M1A1's, how did these guns skip the mod,s after WW2, no type 3 barrel bands, the eight of them still had the flip sights etc. were these carbines left overseas after the war ? are all of them fakes ? a few of them looked really good.
There were no rebuild stamps on the wood ? how would a carbine skip the rebuild after WW 2 ?
Are there any real Carbines out there that were left that way ? and how did did they get by ?
Thanks. :banghead:

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I remember my very 1st questions on Jouster, Not knowing I asked:

If a carbine was rebuilt was the stock restamped with the Crossed Cannons by Ordnance? Or for that example the boxed S'G' marking ?
I was totally reamed by about 6 guys being called a Stock Humper and worse. Many others jumping on.... being 'Followers'.

Marcus 'Might' remember and I know if Harlan was still here he would definitely remember. It was Harlan that told me step by step how to load pictures on a computer and how to attach them to a Email. I passed the pictures to both of them. Marcus was trying to buy it from me and took the time to explain what I had. It was a Hi-wood I cut IR-IP stock with a boxed IP and boxed S'G' both had a CC stamped by them. I also had another Hi-wood I cut marked IR-IP that had 2 boxed IP Stamps (Lightly stamped) on it and only 1 Crossed Cannons Stamp between them. I never showed the pictures to the name callers, but kept track of their names and posts for years to come.

Sure enough back when the last couple big sales of CMP Carbines were on, I seen all 6 of these 'Purist' listing their finds and serial numbers. Before your post ink was dry they were running WTB, WTT, WTS adds as fast as their carbines were coming in, 'Correcting' as fast as they could. Just a matter of months before they were bragging about their recent 'Original' finds..... Including many re-posting the serial numbers. Even caught some of them buying Bardalls Fake CC Stamps on Ebay.... back when you could see who the buyer was. I still have maybe a 100~ printed off Auction results showing names and feedback that many would recognize the usernames if you've been on the forums for a few years. I called it 'The List', Anyone remember 'The List' that I put together of Fake Stock Stamp buyers / sellers and those who would turn around and sell 'Humped Stocks' as Original markings. Fellow members would send me the links if I hadn't seen them so the Culprits were added to the list.
4 of those 6 are still around. But there are plenty more that say one thing and do another.

Don't believe all the 'Purist' some are outright liars.
I remember Dave's 5,6 WRA being called out as a Fake because the CC was too crisp.
I said right away if that one is Fake there isn't a real one left. And why didn't he dump the AU recoil plate? Which happens to have left matching milling marks impressions on the ledge.
But some like DaveHH have stood their ground honestly for years, never wavering from their original story. We call that Character where I come from. There are others that belong in that same group as DaveHH.

My Point is there are many out there that shouldn't be throwing stones.
Do what you want with them, your the current caretaker.
Just be honest about it. So the next caretaker will know it's true history.
Surely we owe this to others and especially the Men who served and died carrying these arms in battle.

Didn't mean to get so long winded....... :cheers:

That little 5.6 had one more hurdle to get over to be recognized. It had a real odd ball ordnance ball on the gas cylinder. I put it out there and it was immediately thrown under the bus. "Never seen one like that" "Humped" Blah, Blah. Marty Black just told me it was an oddball marking that's all. And in the last CC copy Marty sent out showed a photo of the mark and asked anyone who had one like it to let them know. After a few months up popped the devil, several were out there, identical to the one on my gun. One guy, I forget who it was PM'd me to let me know it was legit and there was proof now. That gun had scratch marks around the front sight where someone had put one of those ugly flash hiders on it and scratched the area good and proper. In those days a lot of people used front sight scratches as proof that it had been tampered with. Why anyone would go to the trouble to remove a type 3 band and then replace it with a type 2 instead of a type 1 eludes me. Most didn't even know that Winchester assembled guns AFTER they were finished so every Winchester has some scratches around the front sight.

The only calm and sensible person on these posts was Seth who always said everything was faked. One work responses "Fake".

Just remembered to address this from Charlie's post. When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

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This is a big part of the reason I look for wear patterns 'BEFORE' a Carbine is Detail cleaned. I documented one here for all to see with pictures being taken as I tore it down.

See my replies from #23 to #38.
#38 Shows the Recoil plate impression Dave and I are talking about.
I've tried to remove the Butt plate on this one about 3 times. I wasn't able to remove and stopped trying, afraid of scarring it or damaging it.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38393&page=3

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC08555-1.jpg

Dave! The mention of "Seth" set me to chuckling! I remember him well....

Don't forgot the Ultra Rare Seth-Ola that Harlan was able to buy from Seth before Seth disappeared... ;)

IIRC Mid summer of 2015, JimF and I put a Underwood Carbine together and sent it to Harlan. I had a MU stocked, W coded Underwood barreled receiver with rear Adj sight, Type III barrel band and front sight.
Jim threw in all the internals, Sling, magazines, belt / Stock pouches. I told Harlan I had a Underwood W code receiver he could build up to lure his FFL'S address from him.
This was shortly after his Wife had sold all his carbines while he was in the hospital. We wanted him to have one him and his son could shoot and get to spending more time together. His son had started drifting away from him and we knew they both enjoyed shooting the Carbine.
He got it, Thanked us dearly. But neither Jim or I ever got any details about shooting it.
That next January we lost Harlan. Never hearing from his son.

I really miss both Harlan and Jim... :beerchug:

The SETH-OLA

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...verLarge-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by painter777

I really miss both Harlan and Jim...

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Could have met JimF by going across the straights about 30 miles to Sequim WA when he moved there and could have met Harlan in Dallas/Ft Worth when I was in the airport there...if I'd messaged him ahead of time. Missed my chance on both. Yep, I miss 'em too.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

That little 5.6 had one more hurdle to get over to be recognized. It had a real odd ball ordnance ball on the gas cylinder. I put it out there and it was immediately thrown under the bus. "Never seen one like that" "Humped" Blah, Blah. Marty Black just told me it was an oddball marking that's all. And in the last CC copy Marty sent out showed a photo of the mark and asked anyone who had one like it to let them know. After a few months up popped the devil, several were out there, identical to the one on my gun. One guy, I forget who it was PM'd me to let me know it was legit and there was proof now. That gun had scratch marks around the front sight where someone had put one of those ugly flash hiders on it and scratched the area good and proper. In those days a lot of people used front sight scratches as proof that it had been tampered with. Why anyone would go to the trouble to remove a type 3 band and then replace it with a type 2 instead of a type 1 eludes me. Most didn't even know that Winchester assembled guns AFTER they were finished so every Winchester has some scratches around the front sight.

The only calm and sensible person on these posts was Seth who always said everything was faked. One work responses "Fake".

Just remembered to address this from Charlie's post. When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

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Dave, a lot of us gave you a hard time about it because you used to rant in a way to put other people down in their enjoyment of the hobby, so we gave it back to you.
It was earned. :)

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Originally Posted by tenOC

Dave, a lot of us gave you a hard time about it because you used to rant in a way to put other people down in their enjoyment of the hobby, so we gave it back to you.
It was earned. :)

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You got that right. I was a Royal Pain in the A$$ about part swapping. It finally got through my thick skull that these people were just doing what they wanted with their possessions. I predicted that all of these corrected guns would someday be out on the market with no one the wiser. The standard reply was " When I sell them, I'll put all of the old stuff back on them". Well that didn't happen, but it's none of my business anyway.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

They could also have been "Corrected".

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Speaking about they could of been Corrected, This year or maybe I've missed it before, but there is a entire section and Several different Prices for each one in this Year (2021) about this in GBB.

When I started this thread I had high hopes of correcting one of my two carbines back to it's org. WW-2 configuration, kinda like a before and after, BUT, when I started looking for the org. parts it would take to do this right and the asking price: Type 1 barrel band 175-$250, org. flip sight $200, front sight $90- $100 plus the tools required: front sight remove and install $50, rear sight remove and install $50 and that's not counting the small items like mag. release and safety. :eek:

Sooooo,.....that, and the expert comments here, I decided to leave it in a Korea, Vietnam era configuration, since I was lucky enough to have visited VN more then once in my younger days. But it was fun looking for the parts it would take, and to make sure the parts would be correct [U.S. M1 carbines, war time production by Graig Riesch] and this forum.

And I still think the M1 carbine is the best looking small arms the Military has ever had, and it has sure seen it's share of wars.
Here's a few pic's of mine with some of it's Vietnam items. Thanks for looking. ;)

That is still a sweet lookin' carbine!

Love the carbine and the jeep!

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

You got that right. I was a Royal Pain in the A$$ about part swapping. It finally got through my thick skull that these people were just doing what they wanted with their possessions. I predicted that all of these corrected guns would someday be out on the market with no one the wiser. The standard reply was " When I sell them, I'll put all of the old stuff back on them". Well that didn't happen, but it's none of my business anyway.

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Honestly, I didn't believe the barrel proof was legit at the same time. And today, there is still so much I and we don't know. On swapping, it was my goal to drive people into the open doing it, instead of driving them into the shadows hiding it. We still figure out who the people doing it are, or at least which Carbines are worked over regardless of how open they are about it's condition when they got it.
After all this time I don't build much anymore. There are a few pieces that just need a stock or something but they're unique enough that I leave the probable wrong stock on them.

I have IP stuff in mid project and an M1A1 or 2. Still have an S'G' receiver from GB that has flip staking I bought to build. It's a lost cause, probably.

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Originally Posted by tenOC

Honestly, I didn't believe the barrel proof was legit at the same time.

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You're in good company because BQ hadn't seen one either. Marty looked at it more logically: Why would an obviously Winchester made barrel on a Winchester carbine have some honkie looking fake ordnance stamp? No stamp at all was better than that one. Marty was right and they came out of the woodwork. He knew that there were several different dies in use all different in some slight way, why not another? He worked with me on a Winchester he had that was close, maybe 100 guns off mine and it was quite a bit different. When there are 1000 guns a day being built, chances are real good that lots of people are doing a lot of different things. And hundreds of thousands of parts in those bins.

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by lboos

When I started this thread I had high hopes of correcting one of my two carbines back to it's org. WW-2 configuration, kinda like a before and after, BUT, when I started looking for the org. parts it would take to do this right and the asking price: Type 1 barrel band 175-$250, org. flip sight $200, front sight $90- $100 plus the tools required: front sight remove and install $50, rear sight remove and install $50 and that's not counting the small items like mag. release and safety.

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I looked at it in another way: Why remove later much improved parts to be replaced with parts that don't work as well and may be worn out? I share your views on the carbine. I recall always seeing the same VC tax collector in his hammock by the bridge. With his carbine. He'd wave to us and we'd wave back. A lighter more handy weapon is hard to find. Love your split window.

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

I looked at it in another way: Why remove later much improved parts to be replaced with parts that don't work as well and may be worn out?

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Valid point, but much overlooked or un-thought of by collectors.