Anyone here put in for or bought one of the midwayusa carbines ?
Just wondering about the price and condition, haven't heard much about them lately.
Have they even started selling them yet ?
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Anyone here put in for or bought one of the midwayusa carbines ?
Just wondering about the price and condition, haven't heard much about them lately.
Have they even started selling them yet ?
Check them out here. They have not went to live sell yet.....2 more days and they can be purchased.
Military Surplus Guns - MidwayUSA
Their script describing the Carbines is less than truthful. No Carbines with type I sight. Many with bayonet lug and rotary safety that don't match the 'as manufactured' description.
You can get one with an early barrel band and an IMPORT STAMPED barrel.
Wait it out. Get one with no import stamp from Gunbroker or similar.
I for one find it exciting that there are apparently still pallets of WWII US small arms waiting to be "discovered", imported, and sold. I also like that they have them separated by manufacturer. Price is probably steep considering the above mentioned import marks, and potential for lots of post war features, but, 20 years from now, you'll probably kick yourself for missing the chance. I'll be buying one.
I would also think that some of, if not all of these carbines were used in combat during WW-2 while most of the ones sold in the US prob. never left this country and were used for training etc, "not meaning the family bring backs of course".Quote:
Originally Posted by champ0608
If you could choose a carbine that was prob. used by our troops in combat during WW-2 but had a import mark on it, or one that had no import marking but never left the US, which would it be ?.....Just thinking. ;)
BTW: tenOC, Some adj. sights were installed in the field near the end of WW-2, from what I have read the adj. sight was the 1st mod.
I just don't see the "Probably used in combat" deal. So it was abused, dropped, covered with dirt or sand, whatever. That makes it a better carbine? My late father-in-law was a Red Ball Express Officer in WW2. He was issued a new carbine and a day later someone stole it out of his truck. Exciting isn't it? To me it is just another piece of gear. Everyone gets a weapon.
I'd rather have an almost new stateside weapon straight out of the company T.O.E. issued to an Army dentist who didn't like shooting it much.
In 20 years, if we're still allowed t have these, there will be plenty of Carbines sold out of long time collections in original config of people in my age bracket.
Blue Sky. Ask the world that about Blue Sky marked Carbines. At the same price, I'll take the ones that never left. Import marked ones fill a role, but not priced at full retail with parts changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by lboos
Are you being serious right now? Midway's statement is that they are still just as they left the factory. Not at all true by what the pics show.Quote:
BTW: tenOC, Some adj. sights were installed in the field near the end of WW-2, from what I have read the adj. sight was the 1st mod.
You're also talking about an exception. Reality is the rule. Armorers replaced these and staked the receivers for the adjustable sight.
Don't forget to read Midway's updates on condition - made on 5/19/21. - Bob
https://www.midwayusa.com/us-militar...us-m1-carbines
Yeah, we've been over that on other sites. This discussion is new to this site but not the others. The description doesn't say that update.
Search M1 Carbine on their sight, find the MILITARY SURPLUS link and select a Carbine. This is the blurb attached:
The backstory:
After years of effort, our Supplier has been successful in securing a large lot of U.S. made M1 Carbines and MidwayUSA has purchased all of them! These M1 Carbines have not been arsenal refurbished. Per our supplier, these guns are believed to have come directly from use in the European theatre of WWII, eventually making their way to the Italian Armed forces. From there they went to the Carabinieri – the Italian National Police - and have been in storage since the early 1950s. There are no records indicating how the Italian Armed Forces came into possession of these WWII M1 Carbines.
These guns are a piece of history and prime examples of wartime production. They are still ‘as assembled’ during the rapid mass production of WWII. These guns have not been reworked at an arsenal nor refinished at any point. As the US spooled up its wartime production of military guns, it was necessary for multiple manufacturers to work together to complete production of a single working M1 Carbine. Not all receiver manufacturers made barrels and many used barrels from multiple sources. The barrels are appropriate to the receiver as they were manufactured. There are variations among these guns, including sights, safeties, gas blocks, etc. Variations were common during the years these guns were manufactured. Small parts may have been replaced during the war due to normal field use and maintenance. In service during the war, these M1 Carbines were then placed in storage for almost 70 years by the Italian government.
[QUOTE=tenOC;500317]In 20 years, if we're still allowed t have these, there will be plenty of Carbines sold out of long time collections in original config of people in my age bracket.
tinOC,
I don't think there are any carbines today in original configuration, only corrected ones. ;)
Those of us who know how to spot one that is still as built from the factory are happy that others can't tell the difference. There are a bunch out there.
There is no excuse for Midway's false statement. It might apply to 25 Winchesters as an exception, but not in the slightest for the bulk of those Carbines. They aren't even corrected.
Wow! that's neat! original config or not, I'm tempted to buy one. Wonder if Midway will still give me my discount on these.
[QUOTE=tenOC;500322]Those of us who know how to spot one that is still as built from the factory are happy that others can't tell the difference. There are a bunch out there."
Absolutely correct and most are 1944-45 built carbines. When you spot a type 2 band, you are getting warm.
Actually we've been talking about them here for nearly a month. The mods moved the thread, so it kinda' got hidden. - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74117&page=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
In 20 years I will be 88 and probably in a nursing home so I don't think I can wait for those collections to come on the market :lol:
What makes me happy is to hear from someone with such passion and knowledge about a WW-2 carbine in it's org. configuration [maybe a little too much Oak Island ?] .;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Could you please post a pic. of one of yours as built from the factory for those of us who can't tell the difference, Thanks.
Thanks for the lead
You don't have to wait 20 years. They're on GB every month. In 20 years people in my demographic will be liquidating or dead, so there will be nice Carbines available then too.
lboos, most experienced Carbine people have several original as manufactured Carbines. Bunches have just had the stock swapped. I never really focused on acquiring them and have around 7. Two came from one collector. Both are unique examples. More Carbines have had just the stock changed. One 100% orig came off GB 2 years ago, an early S'G' for $729 buy it now. carwashchris and deldriver saw that auction afterwards and one has seen the Carbine in person. How do you buy a Carbine worth 2500 in parts for $729 off of a national website? You happen to look at the right time. Then you almost screw it up from excitement by hitting the BID NOW button instead of the BUY IT NOW one. The same week a friend bought 2 off of another auction, an orig 7 mil Winchester someone modded parts on and a rare serial NPM that the stock was swapped on. He almost parted it out because a Riesch says a 4 mil NPM isn't supposed to have a dogleg and type I band.
Others posting in these very Midway topic threads have pics of one or some of theirs in this forum.
3) Newer people won't notice but a lot of very experienced people don't post here any
more and some don't even post on other forums. Maybe it's because newer people try to dispute what they've tried to teach them? Some got tired of reteaching frequent posters too. Seems the exodus accelerated the past 2 years.
I posted in that thread that died on 5-19. The info I posted about Midway BSing the description again beginning in June is still being discussed on CCC and Gunboards last week.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI
Midway is also claiming they were never REFURBISHED. The term "rebuilt" was discussed in that thread. Refurbished is replacing rear sights, rotary safeties and barrel bands. Midway Carbines are refurbs. Late Winchesters and Inlands might not be, but that will be the mnor exception. The barrel assemblies have a higher likelihood to be original..............and they're import marked barrels.
Why is Oak Island anything on TV, anyway?
One of the nicest Carbines I've seen in person was a very late Inland original at a show. Almost 2 years ago the 1900 he wanted wasn't comfortable, but it's still a memorable one. Today one of the RTI or Midway buyers would opt for it quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
There's a way to better your odds with these Midway Carbines, but I'm not talking. ;)
I can't seem to find condition descriptions. Are they using the NRA surplus grading scale?
Yes they are using NRA scale. It is on the Midway descriptionsQuote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
hmm. which manufacturer should I get? I don't have any carbines yet. I was thinking NPM. My son is very in to old computers and suggested we get an IBM.
I am going to try for a Rockola. I wanted to also get a Quality or IBM but I have two Winchesters from CMP and since I don't go to collector meets just take them to the range there is no real reason to get even more types.
I want but I don't need
What about jukeboxes and get a Rock-ola? Or typewriters and an Underwood-Elliot-Fisher? You almost need one of each, all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
I wish. Read somewhere in another forum that NPM had the highest per unit bid across all the contracts, and had the slowest production time. Whether that equated to higher quality control, or more attention to final fitting, I dunno...it was certainly fiercely debated in the CMP forum (thank god we are so much more civilized over here:))Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I was never a big DOS fan, never wasted money in the jukebox as a kid, and already have my matching smith-corona typewriter made the year before they switched to 1903's.
[QUOTE=lboos;500320]I think there are many out there. I have 2 a Quality Hardware and a Saginaw S'G'Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Almost everything was gone in 15 minutes. I was stopped in the middle of the checkout process by a short stall in the computer. When it went through, POOF! the item in my cart had disappeared! I didn't have/get the Rock-ola I had in the cart! It was gone because of a computer glitch! I'm one ****ed puppy! One more click and I'd have had it. I even had selected the FFL it was to be shipped to and did the NRA round-up. All I needed to do was click the button to confirm the order and BOOM! it was gone.....
Don't feel bad, I didn't have a PC glitch BUT the site was super slow and it hung me up at enter name, I clicked continue and it sat for 3 minutes and I lost the Rockola.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimb16
(I already have 2 Winchesters from CMP)
There are many. Someone tipped me to a potential one almost 2 years ago for a min bid of 900. I didn't bid. Nobody did. There were no internal pics but it's a Winchester in the dogleg range with type I band and flip sight. I asked for pics of the trigger group after it ended and it had it's original group with dogleg. He reran it at $1200. darn.Quote:
Originally Posted by tom gray
I'm still crying today about spending 300 more for it.
---------- Post added at 11:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:25 AM ----------
Maybe the glitch was caused by too many people selecting Rockola Carbines than were available that were already in the process of being sold?Quote:
Originally Posted by jimb16
I logged in at 9:07 eastern. There were no "fine" NPM's left, so I checked IBM, no fine or very-good-to-fine of those. I was able to check out with no issues on very-good-to-fine NPM without bayonet lug. took a couple hours to get an order confirmation email, and within a few minutes of that it was marked shipped and I had a tracking number, expected delivery Thurs. Sounds like Larry Mr. Potterfield planned all the logistics ahead for this.
My buddy's son tried for a Winchester Fine but was only able to get a good-very good, $1350.00
You are lucky you got the tracking number right away, I got the confirmation of order right away but no tracking number yet.
I signed in a 9:00 and went right to the Rock-ola's and at 9:00:15 seconds there were no FINE Rockolas, put the VG-F in the cart and started checkout, and it sat waiting to accept my name and I got booted out of the cart all gone by 9:04
Then went to Quality Hardware and no Fines at 9:05 but snagged a VG-F QH
So no matter the naysayers, the carbines have evaporated. I guess we can expect some of these to appear here for perusal, then we see.
Ben, same thing happened to me. I was 90% of the way through the purchase process. Only had to click on confirm order and I got hit by a "freeze". Then suddenly my cart was empty. I had a Rock picked out too. I went straight to it right at the opening and zipped through the process. I had everything set and knew exactly what I needed to do. It couldn't have taken 2 minutes..... When it froze, I called their customer service. They didn't help a bit. Said they would make a problem report to IT. That doesn't help one little bit.
So frustrating, but then I did see a thread on Milsurps that listed the "order" of the carbines, Irwin first, then I thought Rockola but looking at it again it was Quality Hardware Second followed by Rockola so had I noticed that order before I might have tried for the QH rather than the Rockola, BUT I was successful with a VG-F QH, but maybe could have gotten the Fine
I will certainly do an unboxing thread with plenty of detailed pics before I go about cleaning it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I am planning the same thing but also with a movie to post to my youtube channel, I have done that for several guns, not unboxing but usingQuote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZw4vBPRyy8&t=13s
I am just learning about M1's here is my Quality Hardware (VG-F) box came through fine, no dents or tears. Seems to be in very nice shape, just a tad of cosmoline under the top handguard and in it.
Serial # 156XXXX
Quality Hardware under adjustable sight
ROCK-OLA barrel dated 2-43
Top handguard marked OI
Stock only marking I could find is a "V" in the receiver well
Square cross hatch on recoil plate
"L" on Trigger group
flat bolt
UI on the barrel band - Type 1
what is the "V" in the receiver well?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...S5mXDqLh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...BwM7SGVh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...jO5G2G5h-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...OWDkBAuh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ejn52Qch-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...oPxsNGnh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...KrnEmBSh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7BoEQiZh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6FqCB3Th-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6mOkhMdh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...lMsJRZPh-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...mrTGn91h-1.jpg
I don't know about the "V" on the stock, but that's a nice "dogleg" Winchester hammer. Look for a faint W on the RH side of the trigger housing near the back. Those are nice pics! - Bob
I see a "W" on the left hand side. Thank you on the pics I took them with my Canon 5D mark IV and a 15-35 L lens
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../mrTGn91-1.jpg
What W on the left side of the trigger housing? I don't see a right hand side of the housing posted.
Sorry I was looking at the hammer[ I see a "W" at the back of the trigger housing on the right hand side COLOR="black"]Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
---------- Post added at 05:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------
[/COLOR]Here is the right hand side
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...7wXdBCqh-1.jpg
---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...XFRXkpCh-1.jpg
Looks like Winchester to me.
But the receiver under the sight has Quality H.M.C. , on my two Winchesters I can see Winchester on that spotQuote:
Originally Posted by jimb16
I believe he is talking about the trigger housingQuote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
Oh, I agree, the trigger housing is Winchester.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
All M1 Carbines produced by the various manufacturers of carbines often had parts from various suppliers at different times. Even those manufacturers that produced most of the parts in house as the press of war and production dictated that sometimes in house parts weren't available so parts were procured from other sources. It isn't unusual to find any carbine produced to have another company's barrel or other parts that never had those parts replaced. The issue that it takes time and effort to tool up and produce every part was the primary reason so many different company's were in the M1 Carbine program. The vast majority of suppliers produced some parts, not all parts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
His Quality would not have had a Winchester group, nor trigger housing from Winchester. What you've posted isn't the accurate way to say it and will lead to more rumors passed by uninformed people.
Most makers had parts subcontracted by companies who coded them for use for the specific makers. For instance you will see codes on Quality Carbines like Q-NL, NL-Q, Q-TX, DA-Q, J-Q, Q-J, Q, Q-GE, GE-Q, etc.. NOTE THE Q. Barrels installed on receivers from a different maker will have the proof mark matching the producer of the receiver who assembled it. In the case of Quality the proof P has a very short stem, which is easily IDed. You can't just have any parts installed on a Carbine and it be corrrect nor original.
My early quality has a Winchester barrel with Quality proof P, while Winchester never used the P. So any Winchester barrel on a Quality without one is not correct.
The barrel on my Quality has "Rock-ola" but it also has a "P" proof mark that appears to be about 1/8" high. The trigger group only has "W"'s so would that be from some sub-contractor who coded it for Winchester but sent it to Quality?Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Essentially that is the thought process of an "originalist" who refuses to accept anything other than what might have (I emphasize might as all records are not available these days concerning the entire production of the M1 Carbine during wartime needs) come directly from any factory which includes carbines that have gone thru the system of repair and refurbishment. I'm not so picky.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
I agree with you, I like these guns because they came straight from the Italian Army or Police and before that the US Army, should not have had any bubbas changing parts. I want to find out all I can of my rifle but feel it is "original as released from service" (not factory).Quote:
Originally Posted by eb in oregon
TenOC is right and is trying to prevent the spread of misinformation. You guys are talking about two totally different things anyhow. When the guys that have been around a very long time in this field tell you something, you should feel more of an urge to learn instead of push back.jmo
I thought I was trying to learn and not pushing back.Quote:
Originally Posted by jond41403
Totally false. Original config and rebuilds have nothing in common regarding parts. That is the actuality of the situation. We know how they were originally assembled and with what parts. For 2 years a couple guys create an account and are intensely trying to spread misinformation about how they were assembled. The transfer data for original manufacture is/was available to the largest degree. The parts are coded to the largest degree. You can't fool the community. Those people I described get banned on boards or get told to knock if off before they get banned, but they pop up again as new users.Quote:
Originally Posted by eb in oregon
If you're going to say we don't know how they were assembled, you'll easily be proved wrong. You can say we don't know what parts were utilized on rebuilds because that's true. Midway Carbines are mostly mixed parts, some refurbs and refinished.
There is a large number of original or nearly original Carbines still in existence.
I don't even focus on originals and even I know all that.
Your Carbine is not as it left the factory. Midway falsely claimed these have not been refurbished. Some are refinished, even.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
Rockola provided a very large percentage of barrels to Quality Hardware and they're stamped with the proofing I described. Overall size doesn't reveal what an image does. Winchester provided a tiny number percentage wise and everyone knows they never used a P proofing. That's why I used that example. When Quality used Winchester barrels they stamped a P on the barrel. They used other barrels too.
He said you're pushing back because I already said your Carbine has swapped trigger group parts.
Thank you for the clarification. I don't mind what parts might have been swapped out as I think, but could be wrong, that that was done durring or after WWII by the U.S. or by Italy after they got it for the Army. I could be wrong but I think that the Midway carbines are "as they came from storage" and not played around with by the importer/Midway/ or some other owner. I understood when Midway was advertising that they were original WWII as they left the factory that was most likely BS, but I liked the history on them that they were in Europe, probably as spares most likely not in actual combat but you never know (they can't talk) and then were given to Italy and during their service lifetime either with the US or with Italy they were worked on with new sights and safeties and probably more. But to me that is more interesting than what I see at the gunshows with no history to them other than they are a carbine. My Dad's K-Bar he carried on Saipan (Bronze Star) and Iwo Jima (survived) is a case in point, you can't prove its history but I was given it by him and he told me the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
I am trying to find out all I can about this carbine (as well as my two Winchesters) so I know more about it. Already I have learned a lot and hope to learn a lot more. Thanks to you and others I am find out things I never knew and appreciate it. For example about the significance about the P on the Rock-ola barrel and the different parts.
As I mentioned I think and hope I am right that all the changes to the M1 were done by the US Army or the Italians not by a collector along the way, I just like the story.
Finally I really like the way it looks, whether refinished or not, there is a real nice patina to the stock and yet some damage and slightly beat up, it wasn't a safe queen. One of my Winchesters had the stock refinished, although done really well with the cartouches still visible it is too shiny for my tastes. One of my #5's is that way, although not shiny has a nice stock, the other I really like looks like it was dragged by the Rat Patrol for about 10 miles behind a jeep.
I am happy with the M1 and hope to learn more about it and about them in general.
And that's what keeps most of us engaged in this hobby. Be more aware of the term you're using, "collectors", and the assertion you're making against collectors who preserve this hobby.
"Buyers" are probably the ones swapping things around on Carbines you see at shows. Buyers, Bubba, flippers and humpers. Some are collectors who acquired humped stuff. Some collectors look to buy messed with Carbines, messed with by newbs and Bubba, because it's already a screwed up Carbine and not much matters. I bought a restored WRA Garand that looked terrible. I doubt a collector did it. But it had rare parts I was glad to take off it. I'll resell it eventually, but I didn't mess this thing up.
I feel confident that Midway Carbines are already being presented online in pics with parts swapped by buyers and, stocks being the easiest thing swapped. Almost no collectors bought them. Newbies did. Do I believe a Carbine arrived from Italy with a polyurethane finish and it happens to be a match for the Carbine maker? No.
Historically it's the unknowing and Bubba who sanded the stock, filled the oiler and sling cut, swapped the sight, safety and added a scope on a slicked up shiny stock. Much later on collectors try to revive Bubba'd guns. In recent times flippers and humpers have been the people you are calling collectors since there's so much money in these now.
"Collectors" as a term doesn't define anybody the same way. Everybody knows I'm very outspoken on defending Carbines, but they also know I haven't focused on original Carbines and am not an originalist. I have an original parts late Win some Newb bubba'd. It was a pristine original finish someone checkered the stock, filled the stock holes, jeweled the bolt and cut the bayo lug off of a very collectible High C Winchester barrel band. They turned a $200 band into junk. I sanded the stock, refinish oiled and replaced the bolt.
Sold Out.
tenOC
I agree I used the term "collector" when I should have used bubba or flipper - I do a lot of gun shows displaying my world class Boston Police collection (Home - Boston Police Fan site Memorabilia Equipment Photographs) and walk around before the show opens and check out the carbines and then see people buying them some you know are collectors, carefully going over the carbine, others are most likely flippers.
I never paid attention to the makeup of my 2 M1's before but now am starting too. My M1 with # 1211xxx has the type 3 bayonet lug adjustable sights flip safety, not I took it apart and at first could read the stamp on the trigger group, turned out to be Inland. It came from CMP in 2016 so I have no idea of its history. Not sure if CMP got them from the private sector or from imports or where, no idea, same with my CMP from 2009. Wish I knew more about their history. That is why I like the Midway ones.
Love the stock but it seems like it really isn't smooth, the "grain" is raised, the "dark" areas seem to raised just a bit. I don't plan to do anything except maybe carefully wipe it down with some RLO.
ALSO I learned today how to put the sling on! It may sound stupid (stupid is as stupid does) but when I put it on my Win I had forced the oiler in with the sling around it. Well today I managed to realize or find out that you put the oiler in the slot first and then feed the strap in one side and around and back out, easy peasy, I had no idea LOL
I don't want to take it apart too much since the front band is a very tight fit and backing out the screw as much as I dare it is tough to slide it over the catch and off the wood and I don't want to break anything.
This is a very nice carbine. Are you aware that Quality Hardware made exactly ONE part for their carbines? The receiver, and they chose an improved type of spring tube design, one that everyone else stopped producing when they received fresh deep hole drilling machines. So automatically every other part came from someone else.
My NPM is an Italian return bought from CMP, it has an original barrel and happens to have a NPM N16 trigger housing filled with Winchester parts. The stock is a beat up Inland I cut with a wonderful color and fit. This gun shoots 9-10 ring w/a SR-1 target at 100 yards.
Yours has enough rare parts to make up hundreds of dollars of value. You have a genuine, guaranteed type 1 band, try finding one today that isn't fake. I would wager that it shoots lights out since that type 3 rear sight was installed at an armory, not pounded in backwards by Joe Smokem in his garage. I suspect that type 2 bands are even more valuable since they were only used for a short while.
I would be very happy with your purchase and I wouldn't change a thing. It is a little jewel at today's prices for these weapons.
DaveHH
Thank you very much, I AM very happy with the purchase, it is a very nice looking carbine and I put what I think is an original sling on it, not sure if it is original as no markings I can find but it is faded and soft from years of use by someone. I put the sling on because I cannot do steps with my bad knees without holding onto both railings I installed in our inside staircases and I can sling the rifle over my shoulder. I am not planning to change anything on it and will just keep it clean and take it shooting at the range.
I'd contact a trustworthy Midway buyer who received a Quality hardware trigger group but needed a Winchester one to trade/cash trade..
Nope. I don't want to "correct" it. I won't do that to my M1 as I am keeping it as it left service and I got it. The only guns I have done that to are a couple of my BPD service revolvers that someone changed grips or were missing the knob on the extractor push and changing springs on a 1911 and a LugerQuote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
Anyone who's been in the service or done serious hunting will not use a weapon without a sling. It provides a hands free condition and gives any off hand or unsupported shooting an extra level of accuracy. Rules that make hunting work: Never buy the same ground twice, walking on a slope, always have the weapon in the lower hand, sometimes you need to sling arms and just climb, always have your weapon with you.
I was in the service but only used a 1911 the entire time. I was a US Navy Photographer 1972-1976
Love the 1911's can strip them in my sleep although now I only have 2.
You are assuming again. The police probably swapped wrong parts around just as likely as anybody. Midway lied that these aren't refurbed or even refinished. There's no getting around that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
I've been one of the only people who points out how everybody gets holy about how rebuilt Carbines from an armory, but nobody respects the same type of imports and just parts them out. Well, maybe this crop of imports will be different. I don't think it will though. It's an import with a story that got debunked right off. I remember being almost the only one exposing this.
You are probably correct. I mostly know about the Boston Police Dept and their armorers. They stamped B.P.D. and rack numbers on two of the S&W Victory models that BPD got, they did it so hard that they bent the backstraps. They also when the dept needed snubbies cut down 4" barrels to 2" both those are documented (they even recrowned the barrels). I have a S&W pre-Model 45 (.22 LR) one of 25 guns the dept got that is part of a limited run by S&W of a total of 6 inch barrels ever made in the "Post Office" model, extremely rare (check the S&W catalog) and the cylinder belongs to another of the BPD pre-model 45's, they took them apart and putting them back together weren't careful at all. The serial number on the cylinder is from another of the BPD pre-model 45's.Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
what I am getting at is that departments change things around, so I am sure the Italians probably did, but I know the M1's are as they came from Italy.
However that being said if I ever track down the other pre-45 would I get the person who has it to swap cylinders? I would. The problem is that there are only 2 other guns still known, although I heard a rumor that there is one existing in SE Massachusetts, but that was just a rumor. It is interesting having 1 of 3 guns known ever made by S&W in that configuration.
So many rare Carbines and M1A1 are monkeyed with. Irwin Pedersens are frequently poorly corrected. It wouldn't be so bad that they're messed with. But it's that Saginaw S'G' Carbines get destroyed for a corrected IP. I can't do it, but even people who post here have stripped them to build an IP or two.
The last Saginaw I bought lost it's stock, flip and safety. Makes me wonder if it was sacrificed to IP.
I am not going to monkey with my stocks, may only wipe them down to gently clean them. I will start another thread about my Gibbs 03A4 with new CMP stock that I want to add color and RLO to but even that one I don't want to mess up. I think and this may be crazy but I think I will buy a raw carbine stock from Fulton and use that to learn finishing.
this repro 03a4 (orig 03a3) doesn't seem to have anything on it and the carbine in the second pic is a fake gun but using a repro stock, the others are parade guns
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...M1cEBr3l-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...YRXdApMl-1.jpg
There is an inland available now if anyone is interested. You have to click on it and make your selection.
of all those rifles, I wonder how many failed the background check or otherwise were sent back. maybe more will pop up.
---------- Post added at 07:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:44 PM ----------
they just started selling what looks like all the magazines too. when I looked last week midwayusa had none. now that have NOS in originall packaging for $50, and various used.
Possibly more, I think that’s why they still have some listed if you do a search under m1 carbine. They all show unavailable but I was able to order a G-VG national postal meter without bayonet lug and a G-VG Underwood with bayonet lug this evening. If they’re are dogs, I won’t have any trouble getting my money back in my area. We’ll see if they ship or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
Looks like the Midway carbines are starting to hit the secondary market. Somewhat interesting screw in the front barrel band.
Inland M1 Carbine 1943 With Push Button Safety
That’s what Bubba does when his band threads are stripped. Looks like stainless steel maybe….a quality replacement and I don’t mean QH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer B
So they're just going to call them "push button safety" from now on? :lol:
I figured there would be a lot of buying, parts swapping to "complete" other rifles, and dumping the rest on the market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Singer B
O.K. I finally got around to cleaning up my Midway "good to very good" Winchester.
Ser # 11385XX . The stock is "Peterson Bros Underwood" with PU stamped in the sling well. No other markings that I can see. I am replacing it with an I cut stock from Numrich anyway as I already have that and want to use it. The Hand guard is a two rivet stamped I.O. Inland I think. All action parts seem to be Winchester except the bolt which is an Inland bolt with I.O. and a sideways 2 stamped on it .
I'm thinking the metal has been refinished as there in no wear on any parts and it has a dark black park finish.
The gun was very dirty on the outside but mostly a coat of dust and oil. Inside everything was covered with a brown smelly oil that must have worked as there is no rust anywhere.
After putting it in the new stock, it looks very much like a new gun. I'm not a collector and I intend to spend a lot of time with it at the range. I'm a little disappointed that it didn't have a Winchester stock and bolt but a lot of time has passed since it left the factory and I'm sure there is much history we will never know about. Attachment 118742Attachment 118743Attachment 118744Attachment 118745
Attachment 118747Here it is in it's new stock and hand guard. Numrich stock was a perfect fit.
Nice stock!
There is going to be such a run on flip sights! (as if there wasn't a decades long one already)
I think you are right. All of these went through the initial refurb and lost their sight. I suppose there is money to be made putting on a good fake flip sight and selling to a novice buyer. I like mine as it is and for what it is, with all it's service history.Quote:
Originally Posted by AD-4NA
I want to see the one Larry Potterfield got.
One? he likely set aside one of each. I recall reading they all went through at least one US refurb in Europe before the Italians got them. I doubt any of them had original flip sights - maybe someone will jump on here and correct me. I also read somewhere there was no paper trail or other knowledge of exactly how the Italian national police ever obtained them.
Yea I was trying to be ironic. Or sarcastic however one would look at it. I'm just jelious. It would be nice to have the first shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
I bet if we email midwayusa, they would could kindly get him to supply a pic of the best-of-the-best in this lot. Is Midway a sponsor of milsurps?
What usually happens is new people put a fake flip on their Carbine and think it looks sorta ok. As time goes on they realize that to experienced people it looks pretty wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
Years ago, BQ pointed out that when the Depots changed to type 2 and 3 sights they were supposed to retain the flips for future possible use. Maybe there is a huge supply somewhere?
I never could understand the logic of bitching about a greatly improved rear sight? How a beat to heck, jammed in fake piece of Chinese crap was so cool to the eye and brain. A mod that completely screws up whatever the depot did to make the adjustable shoot dead on.
https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....7&d=1626841782Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim__W
Yes Very nice stock. A good deep cleaning would reveal much more of that beautiful figuring.
I'd be using it also...... Congrats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
@Ben,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
A couple pictures of your stock's wood bridge and just forward of the bridge to see the size router bit used to clear out the Op Slide channel could help ID it.
It's hard to tell from your pictures what maker your Stock is. Trying to narrow it down we can see it's a Type II High Wood Oval cut Oiler Slot.
The bulky front nose style is similar to WRA stocks. WRA Stocks are often found with a letter or number on the inside right shelf along and sometimes on the top of the cross wood bridge.
1st: See if there are 3 holes under the Butt Plate. If there are 3 we can narrow it down to these makers with 3 holes who made Type II Hi-Wood stocks-
WRA, SC-B, SC-U, M-U, BR-B........... J and SA stocks are 3 hole but did not make Hi-Woods.
2nd: This link will list 3 hole stock makers: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=73123&page=1
3rd: WRA and M-U stocks (Marlin made for Underwood) feel and look familiar, both having 3 holes, thick wristed, bulky nose and often have a tapered leading edge at the front of the left side slingwell. WRA used a smaller, less aggressive router bit to clear out the channel inside for the Op Slide box.
4th: Look this link over for help seeing WRA STOCK traits: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=46635
Lastly inside the left slingwell:
WRA will show 3 cutting passes with the middle one being more narrow than the top and bottom passes.
Marlin will also show 3 cutting passes but they are relatively the same width, example pic below you can use to compare to the WRA pic in WRA STOCK traits link above.
M-U Sling Well Cutting Passes:
I think with enough people documenting these, in the configuration they got them from Midway, we can narrow down the most likely versus least likely journey for this batch of carbines. I'll come back to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
Amen. I have my dad's K-Bar as well. Same deal except his only somewhat hot zone was the airfield in Operation Beleager. There's no way to prove it was his other than my word. So it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
I got my Midway second hand, but it seemed to me the metal refinishing was not recent. I'm not 100% convinced the importer didn't have these cleaned and assembled or some such operation, but do think its more likely they did nothing or minimal cleaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenOC
The trails of carbines to DCM and CMP are generally known, just not their individual deep back story. People can help you with getting a little further with those carbines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveHH
Whatacountry has surplus Korean era (D-tip) if you are OK with a non-WW2 era sling. There are also other slings used at various times and organizations, including the mystery of what the Caribieneri were using in the 1970s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
See https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74403
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1/11/275-1.jpg
:clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright
I can't say I'm doing the same with mine. I bought mine for shooting in matches and have already changed a couple internals including a type 1 extractor.
However I like your thinking. The configuration its in is a record of its service and I appreciate the curators approach.
This is exactly what happened to mine. A fake flip was installed (backwords) on mine by someone who thought he could restore it to WW2 appearence and resell it ot re-enactors (as he had done with a number of Garands). He apparently couldn't understand why I wanted the Type 3 rear sight or why I would return his flip sight (which I have no use for).Quote:
Originally Posted by ssgross
He himself got taken with a faked C-tip sling. Who changed the sling swivel is a mystery but its possible he got it with a bent one and so he did that too.
I think we can collectively figure out a little more about these carbines by pooling our information. Just looking over the things have been publicly posted or reported we know: that some have a unique butt plate
some of have bent sling swivels (all type 1 ?) were some replaced ??
all seem to have received a black finish on the exterior metal.
None of the Midways so far show FAT stamps
Its my gut feeling based on this, that this batch came through a different journey than the returns that went through FAT refurbishment. I think its possible these came out of US Army stores already in Europe, possibly including many repaired or in-service overhauled weapons. I do not beleive they went into storage in the early 1950s, although it is possible they were received by Italian military as early as 1944.
Italian M1 Carbine info and Requests - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1
The guy in that pic must have a "bionic" left thumb!
I would be very surprised if The US would be giving the Italians carbines in 1944. The US invaded Sicily in July 1943 and Italy surrendered in Sept 1943. Italy was in complete chaos after the surrender. Most of the larger cities were left with no water, sewer or food by the Germans. The Germans wrecked the water systems on purpose to leave the US with one gigantic headache. If the Italian police were needed to help keep order, there were tons of Italian weapons available and plenty of ammunition and trained men to use it.
I am no expert on this. Late 1944 is the timeframe a couple sources have given for Allied re-equipping Italian forces. This entirely makes sense when looking at the timeline and organizations.
Shortly after Marshal Badoglio took over, secret negotiations about surrender to the Allies began. As you may know, the Armistice of Cassibile became public a little off schedule (at least from the Italian point of view). Regardless, it probably would not have been enough to block Operation Achse, which effectively broke the Royal Italian Army. The remnants had to be rebuilt, which took time.
The first combat unit to be formed to fight with the Allies with the 1st Motorized Group (Nov 1943). By the Spring of 1944 this evolved into the Italian Liberation Corps, consisting of two Divisions of roughly 24,000 soldiers. But in Sept 1944 they were taken off the line and re-organized and requiped into a yet larger force called Italian Co-belligerent Army.
Operation Achse and the need for Allied forces to be armed with ammunition that can be resupplied make it farily apparent why they would be re-equipped with Allied weapons. How many of those where US small arms, and whether any carbines were issued at that time, I don't know. All I'm saying is that it's possible.
I can't remember where, but I saw a statement from Midway saying that the last paper trail for these carbines was in some European country other than Italy, they suspect only one arsenal refurb must have happened in Europe, and that there were no other surviving paper trails for them ending up in Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_X
For anyone who didn't get one of these that wanted one (they sold out in <30 minutes)...https://www.classicfirearms.com is selling off a bunch that came out of Africa. I just bought an Underwood in a fit of Black Friday passion. I don't think the condition will be as nice as the Midway's have been. They almost all have late upper bands. They still have some of various manufacturers. Now I need to find a pre-war typewriter that matches to restore alongside.
@ssgross,
I believe I read these carbines came from all over Europe, in a Midway statement.. but IDK.
I was curious about the Midway / Italians and why a German Exporter was used?
Maybe because PW Arms does a lot of business with them ?
And has any of the Midways been reported with the FAT / Date Stamp on the rear of the barrel ?
Below from my reply #17 here:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74117&page=2
3,120 Carbines Reported on US Customs Report
Below is the Exporter: LIMEX GMBH of Germany US Customs Record and Bill of Laden for the M1 Carbines to Importer PW ARMS INC.
Appears that PW ARMS INC. is their largest trading partner.......
When Link below is open, Click on Importers. You'll see how big PW Arms piece of the pie is.
https://www.importgenius.com/suppliers/limex-gmbh
I'm not a member of this Import Web Sight and don't have access back to the May 2021 posted US Customs Bill of Laden records to show you, but I did copy and paste it at the time:
#4... BILL OF LADING...... HLCUHAM210277893
PRODUCT.................RIFLE 3120 PCS M1 RIFLE HS CODE 9303 3000
IMPORTER............... PW ARMS INC.
SUPPLIER................. LIMEX GMBH
ARRIVAL DATE..........2021-04-02
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN..GERMANY
GROSS WEIGHT KGS.... 22507 KGS
QUANTITY................ 151 PCS
There was also another shipment listed (#5) from LIMEX GMBH at the same time going to PW Arms.
I was curious if #5 on the list Code: HS CODE 9301 9000 Could possibly be spare parts.
Is listed as '297 PIECES RIFLES'
The HS Code 9301 90.00 I believe stands for Harmonized Schedule Tarif of European Union.
Per their description this code falls in to: 'Other'. Possibly meaning parts kits, Maybe barrels, magazines etc?
But again IDK. This will take someone better schooled than myself to get to the bottom of.
Lastly, Luckily for Midway, PW Arms and those who purchased that this deal went down before we had all the Freighters mooring by anchor!
Great sleuthing Charlie?
For your next assignment...which country in Africa did the classicfirearms.com come from? I didn't see any statements from them, but in one of their review videos mentioned they came from Africa. I'll do another thread with the one I just bought.
Ethiopia.