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Just picked up a rifle that has been on my list for years.A early Lee Metforrd-Lee Speed.
It may have a Canadian Bore war connection.The tag attached says Paardeberg Drift.
I'm assuming it was captured in one of the first Canadian victories in the war.
Anybody have more info?Serial # is 34xx
Battle of Paardeberg - Veterans Affairs Canada
Attachment 118048Attachment 118049Attachment 118050
Make that Boer war...
Tried to correct spelling error, but you can't edit your post after it is posted.
Very nice condition for a Boer War capture.
Beautiful rifle!
The surrender at Paardeberg of over 5,000 Boers who, under Cronjé's uninspiring leadership, had allowed themselves to be trapped on the river, was one of the first pieces of good news from South Africa in what had, up to then, been an almost unrelieved series of disasters.
As it appears to be a commercial rifle one assumes it was a clandestine purchase or a previous capture from Imperial troops.
Lovely rifle.
The Boers did have Lee Speeds captured from Jameson raiders, these are thought to be in the 1000 - 2000 serial number range.
Rob
Personally I would want to see close ups of the tag. ;)
Superbee, if you want a definitive answer, swab out the cracks and crevices with some Q-Tips dipped in alcohol, put the Q-Tips in ziplock bags and send off to the botany department at Memorial and see if they can find any South African pollens on them. If so, you'll know the rifle really was in S.A., and the Paardeburg story becomes more likely. ;)
I think there are a few potential reasons to be slightly sceptical that this rifle came from Paardeberg.
- I would not expect Boers to be carrying .303s in Feb 1900. At this stage of the South African War, the Boers were well equipped with Mausers and Mauser ammunition, and their back-ups were abundant Guedes and Martinis. The switch to carrying .303s came after the capitals had fallen and Boer ammunition wagons were scarce.
- Boer-associated Lee Speeds are unusual [with the exception of the Jameson Raid rifles, which as I mentioned have serial nos. in the 1000 - 2000 range], one would have to come up with a plausible reason how a Boer came to carry one. Boer-captured-recaptured MLMs and MLEs are not unusual.
- The condition of the Lee Speed shown is absolutely beautiful - better than one would expect with that story.
- The tag and its string don't look especially old, though a close up would be useful.
- Paardeberg Drift was the site of the Canadian camp - the Boer lager was 5 miles away from the drift, known simply as Paardeberg.
For interest I attach a picture of the Boer lager to give an idea of the conditions. I have arrowed some spent RFA 15 pr shells.
I also attach 2 pictures of piles of Boer rifles captured at Paardeberg.
Attachment 118076
Attachment 118077
Attachment 118078
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
Those two pictures could be of the 'Ethiopean Hoard' as currently for sale by RTI
:runaway:
The Boers were so short of ammunition that they paid their soldiers for fired cartridge brass salvaged from the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobD
They had pricing based on which cartridge it was (.577/450, .303, 7x57, Guedes, 577 snider, ect.)
They are said to have created the first industrial reloading operation.
One of the things said to have created the "Kort-Nek" explosions was the 7.65x53 brass (supplied by DWM as 7x57 but in fact 7x53) reloaded with solid copper projectiles which deformed in the longer chamber while firing and either created a "rivet" effect or left a scraping of copper from the previous bullet which welded to then new bullet.
7x53 is theorized to have been created to utilize massive quantities of left over 7.65x53 brass created for Spanish orders before the Spanish changed over to 7x57.
The Boers are said to have recognized the potential causes of this issue and reduced the powder charge and grease lubricated the bullets loaded into the shorter cartridge cases.
Anglo Boer War - Boer 7mm Mauser ammunition, and normal. - Boer War Forum
7 X 53 KORTNEK | Cartridgecollector.net
Only one thing is certain about the 'kortnek' cartridges, is that we don't know. The fact is they existed and were used, how they got to the Transvaal and why, will in all probability never be known. The 'kortnek' has been the subject of intense discussion in South Africa, but decades ago, with no answers except the fact that it existed and was used.
I have 2 examples in my cartridge collection - with different headstamps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daan Kemp
The "lee-speed patents" without a BSA Co mark does seem to be a characteristic of the Jameson Raid rifles. Mine (2023) with a mismatched bolt in the 5000 series corresponding exactly to the sporting metfords carried by the raiders rather than the standard 2000 series of the Reform committee rifles, does have replaced wood from a military 1893 metford, so possible this was a later refurb that has got this particular rifle into its current pristine state if it is indeed 2000 series? The original Boer rifle wood was likely carved or battle damaged. (0n a separate note on Enfield's comments of the ammo shortage amongst the Boers, I've got a very interesting entry from my Grandfather's Boer War diary of Scottish Horse scouts watching Boers of(either De La Rey's or De Wets commandos - Magaliesberg) doing a "chicken-parade"of the old Scottish Horse campsite looking for cartridges. Will get it posted if of interest).
Post please
Hi Daan - this was a transcript of the entry - 2nd Jan 1902. (Thought it had more on the boers searching for ammo but it is just a passing comment). Seems clear that by this stage of the war, the Scottish Horse scouts had a clear expectation that the boers would do a scavenge for dropped ammo as soon as British troops had vacated a camp, hence the ambush. (Sendelingsfontein where this happened is just near Ventersdorp).
Living off the enemy by that time was an art as nothing else was really available. The area around Ventersdorp is still relatively empty.
Dropped live MkII rounds are still common to find on battlefields and when I was a kid (1960s) they were very, very common. The lack of charger loading was part of the reason, but I wonder if there was an order or a habit/custom never to pick up dropped rounds in case they caused a jam during combat.
Soldiers don't care about dropping a round, as there are many more where that one came from.
Beautiful Lee-Speed.
Just took a pic of the tag.
It is made of aluminum and the letters are stamped in.It looks old as the aluminum is starting to corrode and has some pitting
The string is also the old bass rope type, not modern string.It just looks old.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P1010069-1.jpg
The tag looks like a museum tag. Is it possible the rifle came from one of the regimental museums? Ours moved and I saw the original weapons lockup decades back under a stairwell. They had lots of stuff they had no intention of displaying and could still sell at the time.
I would also wonder if it may be some sort of inventory/museum tag. I don't know a lot about it, but I think aluminium was still quite an expensive metal in 1900, as a viable smelting process for producing it had only been developed about ten years before. IIRC the First World War accelerated its use greatly. The letter stamps also lack serifs which tends to be a relatively modern phenomenon.
I was going to say the same; aluminium was a fairly new and exotic metal at the time, and this probably dates to much later.
Typical modern fonts of the kind you can buy at Princess Auto. And I'd say the oxidization happened before the stamping.Quote:
Originally Posted by superbee
Museum tags display accession numbers and similar information. Arcane references to a particular battle do not fit with any known method of artifact categorization or recording to my knowledge.
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