1896 L.E.C Mk1 finish

I have a Mk1 in pretty complete condition. It was a part of a batch I did some conservation work on for my step mom recently.
I ended up buying the rifle and I have some questions about the finish.
Some areas of the rifle appear to be blued and others have too much depth to them where the finish has been worn or almost chipped. These sections look more like a coating. I asked around one time and was told that it might be something called suncorite. I still couldn't find any real info though.

What were enfields usually finished with?

In that era it would have been a rust bluing process. There is a formula given in "Firearm Bluing and Browning" by R. H. Angier that purports to be one used at RSAF Enfield before WWI.

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Originally Posted by cautionflamable

I asked around one time and was told that it might be something called suncorite.

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Show us some pics and maybe we can help you.

Depending on where the rifle saw service, it could be Suncorite. It could have also been "bubba" with a spray can of BBQ paint. Pictures would definitely help you get a more accurate assessment.

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Originally Posted by Singer B

Pictures would definitely help you get a more accurate assessment.

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Agreed. working on it now

Everything has been through a rust conversion and cleaning. All the parts seem to be normal bluing for the most part (bands,screws,sight leaf,etc). There are worn spots on these parts that look like a normal worn area. The barrel and receiver seem to have a finish that is slightly more blue in hue and much thicker. It has physical depth to it where the finish has been worn in these areas.

It also resists a brass pick and phosphor brush like a blued finish would, so I am really just stumped.
The magazine was definitely painted at some point. The paint melted off in the boiling water.

Try some acetone on a rag and see if it removes that coating.

Or MPro7, had amazing luck with it

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Originally Posted by Fushigi Ojisan

Or MPro7, had amazing luck with it

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I agree with that. I had to remove a large amount of Suncorite from an Ishapore 2A1 and the MPro-7 cut right through it.

Suncorite in 1896? Or 1906 or 1926 or 1936?

No.:rolleyes:

Im not interested in removing it, only figuring out if it is original. If not then I may move on from there.
What color did suncorite tend to be?

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Originally Posted by cautionflamable

What color did suncorite tend to be

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Black.

Test a small spot with a q-tip and some denatured alcohol, (methylated spirits), to see if it comes off. If it’s baked on properly, the solvent won’t touch it. I’ve seen many Sht. Mk.II trainers and even a Martini carbine painted over the years so never say never. Just realize it was done post 1944.

I forgot to mention earlier that I've never seen real Suncorite on an Ishapore rifle. I'm not sure what kind of black paint they used, (perhaps whatever was in the cupboard?). If it comes off with acetone and/or MPro-7, I can assure you that it isn't properly baked on Suncorite 259.

I was curious since that finish did not come off, when you conserved it did you have a stainless steel carding wheel or only hand "abrasives"?

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Originally Posted by AD-4NA

did you have a stainless steel carding wheel or only hand "abrasives

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I used a 0000 steel wool that I use for polishing guitar finishes. The finish survived roughly 4 hours in a rolling boil with bronze brushings every half hour or so. The only part of the rifle that had paint on it was the magazine. The paint became gummy and scrubbed away with my thumbs.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Suncorite in 1896? Or 1906 or 1926 or 1936?

No.

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Thank you for not being condescending or anything. Info on this rifle is scarce and I'm here because I don't know anything. Sorry I guess for not just knowing the full history and nuances of rifle finishes in the 1800's.
I hate coming to places like this because it takes so much work to sift through crap like this.
This is my first milsurp, this is my first time researching the history, this is my first time really with any of it.

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Im not interested in removing the finish if it is real. I know enough to know it isn't "pappys old can of paint"
This stuff looks and feels just like bluing in person, but it is somehow thick, like an enamel or something. There was ONE area of the rifle that had been clearly painted in the past and this was not difficult to both identify or remove without disturbing the finish beneath.
The entire rifle appears to be a plain dark bluing and I am not questioning this. The barrel and receiver, however, are the bits in question.

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Originally Posted by cautionflamable

I used a 0000 steel wool that I use for polishing guitar finishes. The finish survived roughly 4 hours in a rolling boil with bronze brushings every half hour or so. The only part of the rifle that had paint on it was the magazine. The paint became gummy and scrubbed away with my thumbs.

---------- Post added at 09:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------



Thank you for not being condescending or anything. Info on this rifle is scarce and I'm here because I don't know anything. Sorry I guess for not just knowing the full history and nuances of rifle finishes in the 1800's.
I hate coming to places like this because it takes so much work to sift through crap like this.
This is my first milsurp, this is my first time researching the history, this is my first time really with any of it.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 PM ----------

Im not interested in removing the finish if it is real. I know enough to know it isn't "pappys old can of paint"
This stuff looks and feels just like bluing in person, but it is somehow thick, like an enamel or something. There was ONE area of the rifle that had been clearly painted in the past and this was not difficult to both identify or remove without disturbing the finish beneath.
The entire rifle appears to be a plain dark bluing and I am not questioning this. The barrel and receiver, however, are the bits in question.

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Hang in there sir, you definitely came to the right place to start your information gathering. I believe the Suncorite comment was aimed at those who suggested it (like me) and not yourself. Now I'm wondering about what the hell I scrubbed off my 2A1! A good idea may be to send it Mr. Brian Dick and have him examine it. He would probably be able to tell you what it is for sure and also safety check your rifle. Now I am hoping someone comes on here and tells us when the British or the Indian militaries created and started using Suncorite because I really want to know!

The first weapons to leave the British small arms factories as original with phosphate and baked Suncorite paint applied were Mk.5 Sten guns. Guessing mid to late 1944. Full blown FTR programs after 1944 would have included the baked paint finish over fresh phosphate, (Parkerizing), as standard rustproofing. I've seen many wartime date No.4 rifles that were not refinished with phosphate prior to getting a baked paint job. Guessing the original blue was good enough to just degrease, prep, paint and bake them.

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I just refinished a 1942 British owned Guide Lamp Division of General Motors M3 SMG in fresh phosphate and Suncorite 259 paint. It looks lovely and is on the way back to the client "as we speak". I refinished two magazines too which HAD to be range tested! First time I've ever fired a grease gun. It's a flawless runner and quite accurate once you get the hang of it. It has a much slower rate of fire than a Sten or L2A3. I told him it needs a period correct suppressor like the Z Force guns used by the Australian, New Zealand and British forces in the Pacific Theater of Operations during WWII.

I have seen a number of US Army M3's (never seen the M3A1) in service and have seen
in private collections British proofed M3's with a bar spot welded over the magazine catch.
Never seen it done on a US M3, believe this was done to protect the magazine catch. I should
add there is a enclosed part to protect the later M3 mag catch

Did your British M3 also have the modification ?Attachment 118561

I am sure you didn't charge for that range testing service!:super:

Yes, the welded bar is present. It’s a sling bar as far as I know.

Charged for time but not ammo.

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It doesn’t have the horizontal sling bar welded on like your picture.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

First time I've ever fired a grease gun.

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Yes they are neat. Running about 300-350RMP they can be singled or doubled without effort and shoot great. I had a Guide Lamp gun too and ten mags. Every time we went shooting it was empty in about fifteen minutes. The suppressors are also about as quiet as anything imaginable.

The front sling bar is attached to the round receiver above the magazine. The spot welded bar was to protect the magazine button from being
being struck and releasing or dropping down the magazine. This was not done on US M3 submachine guns in US service as there was a new
magazine assembly that could be attached to the M3 to protect the magazine button (or catch)