Not often seen

Rummaged through some old pics of stuff I have and thought those out there would not have seen a 700 Nitro Express cartridge.
Its never been loaded so the projectile does not fit into the case and as usual I have used a 303 case for scale but also a loaded H&H 600Nitro Express I have to show how big it is.

The projectile is a 1000 grains @2000fps for 9000Ft/Lbs energy where as the 303 is 174 grains 2,400 Ft/Lb the recoil would be up there with the best.
Around $90/$100 USD per round with the rifle setting you back around $200,00.oo/USD.

Soon to be banned in Castro's Canada I suppose: too much muzzle energy etc.

And then the basic hunting package to shoot a Buffalo with one, $12 000 US and up.

I know where your coming from Surpmil without off tracking to far the situation in our state regarding firearms is dire they have just placed huge increases onto our licensing and fee's especially on dealers and manufacturers licenses we will be looking at being privileged to own a firearm.

I'll post some of my wildcats I found them the other day I was sweating trying to remember where I hid them (old age creeping in!) may start with the Fred Flintstone...

Surpmil, CINDERS. Happening in a number of places. Over here they were also making serious restrictive noises. One good thing about the recent burning and looting here is that armed civilians stopped most of it and even supplied the police with ammo when they ran out - this strengthens the case against restrictions. Or for normal thinking people it would. For government... Let's just leave it there without moving towards politics.

I was able to get these cartridges many years ago.



left: 303 SP, 500/450 Nitro, 475 No 2, 470 H&H, 505 Gibbs, 500 Eley, 577 NitroAttachment 118655

I have a few N.E's Ill go through them eventually a few rare ones in there but here is an oldie for you 375 coiled cartridge.

These are as far as I know, original "wildcat" cartridges that were used in rifles and not something that a reloader could "invent" at his loading bench.

I used to find them at rifle ranges after they developed a shoulder crack or blew-out a primer.

years ago cartridge shows had nice examples of original wildcats too. They are not worth much and really have no value, but to me, very interesting.

I have the Field & Stream late Shooting Editor Warren pages 240 PSP cartridge plus the O'Neil-Keith-Hopkins cartriges and even a 450 Watts which is still around. Alot of history in cartridge development Attachment 118673Attachment 118674

Elmer Keith along with Page and Donaldson are some of the doyens of wildcatting then we Have Mann with his contribution to Ballistics of the era and today we have Litz I have a couple of Bryans books they are very heavy going but worth it. I have Manns book as well also a great read.

Packet of N.E's 500/465 a decent round full pack of 5 in their Kynoch packet of the day.
303 Mk VII round for scale.

A very short lived N.E round that was once considered by the Brits as a military round in .26, .33 and the lesser or rarer .40 BSA round.

I think they were in production for only a very short period 1921 - 1923 (AFAIK) with as far as munition production goes, this being a full packet of Kynoch .33 BSA with 10 rounds it was not a very ballistically efficient round.
This is probably a jewel of my collection of packeted ammo being so rare and in pristine condition, I do have a single in the N.E collection I'll find a pic of it and post but this is something not often seen at the time of purchase there were 2 packets offered up but I could only afford one at that juncture.
.33 is the middle one of the 5 N.E's not sure the paper patched maybe a 500/450. (Not the best pic but its all I could find)

Black 303/25 Super full packet got these a while ago I am pretty o-fare with the different types of Super packaging colours but will be honest I have not seen the just plain black/white as pictured perhaps some of the Aussie shooters here can shed light on whether they have seen this colour scheme in their travels.

.17/22.250 "Fred Flinstone" think this supposed wildcat is a bit of a figment as I can find no reference to it still something totally different.
303 Mk VII for scale.

Had a look into my N.E's pics and found a 577 BPE (Black Powder Express) 2 3/4" this one has an expander pin in the nose to aid expansion again not often seen round these parts.
303 round for scale (Reload)

From my metrics collection a 5.6 x 61Rmm Vom & Hoffe Super Express introduced in 1937 velocity is very close to the 220 Swift. 303 round for scale.

A little Sako 5.7mm x 43mm metric round not made anymore AFAIK think is similar to the .222.
303 round for scale.

Here are a few European cartridges that I have picked-up, would really be nice to have a rifle or two in one of these calibers

Left: RWS 8x72R, 8x65 RS Brenneke 9,3x72N 9,3x74R Norma 11,2x72 Schuler note rebated rim for Mauser actionAttachment 118987

Nice RCS.
I've got a Schuler think its either equal to the 404 Jefferies or the 505 Gibbs I'll have to see if I have a 404 I've got the Gibbs, I'll post up a Nimrod soon, but here is another metric a 7 x 61 Sharpe & Hart I always include a 303 round as usual for scale as most here know the size of the 3 oh.

From the 1890's into the 1900's, gunsmiths, barrel makers and target shooters and even small game hunters were working on the small bore cartridges

Left: 22 WCF center fire WRA Co, 25-20 UMC, 22-3000 G&H formed from 25-20 and smokeless,

25-21 Peters, 25-25 WRA Co and last is 28-30-120.


I understand that the 28-30-120 is becoming popular again because of the quality 7mm barrels that are availableAttachment 119026

Little bit bigger one here a 9.3mm x 53mm M + FA CO

My photo shows a 577/450 carbine cartridge, a 297/230 Rook and a very early 577/450 coiled cartridge - which did not work out too well in the Gatling guns from what I understand.

I may be wrong on the identification of the Rook cartridge ?Attachment 119077

The Rooks correct have a few of them the coiled cartridge is it a Kynoch!
You can tell by near the base look for a small oval shaped window (Inspection Hole) this was purposefully put there so they could check that the lower coil had been completed.
If there was no hole then that's how you ID K cartridges of the era & type.

Here are two of the type the Kynoch one is on the Rt as you can see the inspection port the other has no hole.

A .600 Nitro should still fetch $75-$125, and a good .700 can bring perhaps up to $200. Unfortunately, I think most .700s were made up for collectors, not real rifle owners/shooter.

Here is the 505 Gibbs (Left round) against the 11.2mm x 72mm Schuler obviously the Gibbs is way bigger I don't think I have a Jefferies 404 will have to dig out my NE's. Stay tuned.
From my foggy memory I think the Gibbs 505 is the largest round you can actually get into a bolt gun of any of the known manufacturers mostly I think they went into the Mauser type actioned rifles.

11.2 X 62R lead projectile
303 for scale

Maynard Buehler manufactured his own scope mounts, which were excellent. To prove that his mounts would always hold their zero and would move under strong recoil, he built up a 1917 Enfield. He installed a 505 Gibbs barrel which was 18 inches long and the magazine would hold three rounds. He used this 505 Gibbs rifle in his advertising in the American Rifleman magazine to prove his mounts would not move under extreme recoilAttachment 119287Attachment 119288

7mm Kynoch

Here are some smaller calibers from Europe


left 5,6x57 RWS 7x57R 7x65R 7x61 S&H 8x51 DWM 8x57R 8x60R



the 8x51mm is quite oldAttachment 119399

RCS the 8 X 60R is that the H mantle projie.

Yes, I believe it is the old style H Mantle bullet and has been replaced by RWS with a newer design.

I found a 30-06 cartridge in my collection loaded by Peters (Remington purchased Peters in 1934) with a special compound bullet construction with an added band swaged around the bullet jacket to control expansion. bullet is 30 cal and at 225 grs introduced during 1934 and lasted to WW2. Hunters reported excellent resultsAttachment 119426Attachment 119425Attachment 119424Attachment 119423

Nice one RCS your not trying something fancy of a build with that that wheel gun cyl are you!:madsmile:
I know why its like that.....for the H/S view.

Yes, I do use a cartridge cylinder from my 1851 Uberti Colt revolver that I converted to use cartridges. It is 38 caliber. it holds cartridges just at the right angle to get a good picture of the head stamps. Attachment 119490Attachment 119491Attachment 119492Attachment 119493Attachment 119494

Was looking for another metric to post but came across this pic an early 45/70 WRA Co lead cartridge I have in the collection.
The chap I got it off said it was an early type RCS you may know still its in pretty good shape.
I'll scout around as I have some pretty unique rounds in my collection.

Here where I am located it is extremely difficult to obtain any type of ordnance or cartridges due to our strict laws on owning, selling and postage of the items.
For instance you cannot post live ammunition, powder or primers all of that has to be trucked into this state from the eastern states
We do not have places in towns that sell the gear and allot of it is obtained by word of mouth or by the one club here in this state.

So I will endeavour to find some of my what I think are either odd ball or rare types to share as a matter of interest.
I have a reasonable cartridge packet collection a couple of note worthy ones are a bit ratty 280 Ross packet and a 276 Peterson sadly both empty.

My first photo shows 44 Henry, 45 Govt 45-70 and 50-70 - last three being Benet primed, note the crease or pinch like detent up from the rim. headstamps started in 1877. These are the type used at the Little big Horn during the Indian Wars

The other picture shows early paper patch cartridges, the second from right is modern day 45-120. The 40-70 and 40-90 are quite popular today in the modern Sharps rifles and good long range cartridges. I have friends that use these calibers. The 45-75 Sharps is a 45-70, the paper patch cartridges in my photo do not have headstampsAttachment 119529Attachment 119530

7mm X 57mm RWS cartridge.
303 round for scale.

My second group of early cartridges shows the following:

44 S&W American first appeared in 1869, 44 Russian (1870's) 44 Colt kind of rare to find with headstamp, used in the 1860 Colt cartridge conversions, 45 S&W used in Schofield

First group shows the 44 Bull Dog, 44 Webley & 44 Winchester Webley, these were available on the US market before the Colt 1873 SA, 450 Rem-UMCAttachment 119678Attachment 119677Attachment 119676Attachment 119675

Call me a wimp, but there's no way I'd ever shoot that thing.

champ, which caliber were you talking about ? Had a friend in California who bought a modern reproduction of the Sharps 1874 chambered in 50-140 cal. He
had 20 rounds custom loaded with black powder (using drop tube). He fired three cartridges and then sold the rifle !

Here is a pic of myself 04/05/2006 firing my friends MkV 460 Weatherby Magnum in its standard stock with no dead mule, the rifle is in full recoil having just launched a 500gn projie at around 2,600 Fps.
My front foot is just starting to lift as I rock back a bit to soak up the recoil I fired 3 rounds in the space of about 5 minutes on the second round I forgot to open my mouth and ended up tasting enamel from my teeth grinding after soaking up the 108 Ft/Lb of free recoil energy.

If you get the chance to fire one go for it my friend had a custom stock made for it and a dead mule fitted which tamed it somewhat I fired a further 4 rounds from it and whilst it was better it was not that pleasant to shoot.
I even managed to hit a 6" gong at 214 Mtrs with open sights on the 3rd round from the bench.(Probably a fluke but I'm taking it.:madsmile:)
I have not fired it since the last outing and really have no desire to again.
I do this stufff so I can recount what the experience was like other than some who fudge a bit and never done stuff like that, in-fact I could shoot my mates 300WM all day long but the 460WM naah! take a hike with that mother.

Ron, is this what you were shootintg?

https://youtu.be/4Yj4IL0Q754

I gotta admit, after watching this I haven't wanted to shoot anything larger than a .22!

Russ

I am pretty sure that is the Tyrannosaurus cartridge and the range is in the emirates, I like old Billy Bob after he gets dusted and breaks the glass door, people stuff up with recoil they fight it rather than roll with it.
But I'll freely admit I was not feeling to flash after bench resting 4 rounds with that 460 Weatherby Mag.

The only thing that would be nastier than that is the 950 JDJ of which there are only 3 rifles made a totally useless weapon.
Guys Shoot the .950 JDJ | Military.com

Whilst I have been yapping about Weatherby's thought I would dig out my Weatherby line up the only one missing is the 30/378 which I will get one day.
It took a while to get them all together in factory loaded trim but here they are.

The defunct cartridges like the 220 WBY Rocket and 228 WBY are missing due to being short lived and like unobtainium.

I am also missing the 30/378 from my collection, really miss the cartridge shows from years ago, they still have them but you have to travel. Just like a gun show only nothing but cartridges. years ago I bought this Newton collection, both the 33 and 40 cal Newton cartridges were made from necking up the 30 Newton, but still rare examples. Few even know about the Newton rifles and other cartridges he invented.

Left: 22 Newton, 256 Newton Western, 30 Newton Western, 35 Newton Western, 33 Newton and 400 Newton. Winchester-western loaded factory Newton cartridges and believe Speer also loaded some.Attachment 119758

That 22 Newton sure has a long projectile almost looks like my 6.5 x 284's rifles cartridge.

The modern 5,6x57mm RWS is very close to the 1914 era 22 Newton (which used a shortened 30-06 case.
The 22 Newton fired a 70 gr bullet @ 3250 fps and 70 gr bullet @ 3100 fps.

Newton also designed the 22 Hi power (necked down 25-35R case) and the 250 Savage both for the Savage 99

The original 30 Newton used the 11,2x72 Schuler as a parent cartridge until WW1 started.

Also some claim there was a 270 Newton too

Here are a couple of cartridges from my collection, 2 pistol cartridges middle (Miked at 0.4485") and the right (Miked at 0.5085") are a bit intriguing both are head stamped ELEY LONDON both are C/F's with no other markings.

The cartridge on the left is an ELEY .455 Webley C/F as so head stamped used for a scale.

The one on the extreme Rt maybe/could be a Webley .476 man stopper for their 5 shot revolver the middle one I have no clues about it.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cinders, I am going to take a guess on the middle cartridge in your photo - looks like a 476 Enfield which also has a
punch mark type of crimp ?

Have not got onto the loose stuff for a bit but I picked up a full packet of these a while ago they are in good condition.
Had to rummage through the packets they had as some had reloaded ammo in them, these are all factory loaded.
Don't see these in your local gun shops around here anyways, I'll get to fossicking next week and post up some other rounds.:thup:

I think it would be correct to say that the 334 OKH developed in the 1940's by Keith, O'Neil and Hopkins by necking-up the 300 H&H to 333 diameter to use 200 to 300 gr bullets would be the grandfather to the 340 Weatherby. The 338 Winchester was developed from the 334 OKH and Weatherby took the next step with the 340 cartridge.

my photo shows the 334 OKH and the little known 350 G&H company cartridge used during the 1920's up to WW2. The third is a 458 WRA to show scale next to the 475 OKHAttachment 120029

Yes you can see how the W M morphed from the round described RCS apart from Weatherby's all being belted cartridges what sets them apart is the double radiused shoulder, on thing they do not lack and that is oomph as a factory loading they certainly get going.
The 6.5/300WM is apparently is a real barrel burner severely over bored, I know my 6.5 x 284 barrels with hot loads are usually toast at around 650-700 rounds for 1/2 MOA accuracy required.

here are some old photos of my friends L-39 Lahti 20mm x 138b cannon. I fired a few rounds myself and will never forget the sound and muzzle blast, recoil not bad. The photo of my friend firing the cannon is distorted as the muzzle brake is straight - note the empty cartridges under the weapon. I saved two rounds, now they are selling for $89 each (US)

We fired the cannon at 100 yardsAttachment 120130Attachment 120129Attachment 120131Attachment 120132

Here is a packet of my metric 6.5mm Portuguese.

Often difficult to find early 303 cartridges in the USA, never did find the Mark 111 cartridge


can anyone identify the manufacture on each of the Mark 11 cartridges ?


Thanks RobertAttachment 120202Attachment 120203Attachment 120204Attachment 120205Attachment 120206

Been chasing a Dum Dum hollow point for ever they are just rare as. Very nice RCS.

Here are some of my early CAC MKVI 1907 and CAC MKII with a CAC 4 1919 MKVII and two early MF (Footscray) MkVII rounds

During the late 1950's and into the early 1960's the US Army Marksmanship Training Unit at Ft Benning, GA experimented with large capacity cases at long range targets. Eventually they selected a cartridge very close to the Ackley Improved 300 Magnum. The first cases were made from 300 H&H cases as were Ackley's cases. Remington then made some cases for this unit, but altered their headstamp. Finally Winchester got into making these special case specifically for the AMU too. Winchester-Western cases had the military headstamp W C C 60 on their magnum cases indicating 1960.

Both Remington and Winchester bolt action rifles were used and these cartridges were also used for 1000 yard matches in the early 1960's

My first photo shows the 300 H&H, 300 Weatherby, 300 Rem and 300 WinchesterAttachment 120253Attachment 120254Attachment 120255Attachment 120256Attachment 120257

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

Been chasing a Dum Dum hollow point

---

I picked one up some years back in a group of odd cartridges...lucky find. Not quite as scarce here.

a man from Africa posted a photo of a Mark I cartridge with a 1889 head stamp on another website

Nice RCS the case has a long neck on the W C C case some of the bigger magnums have short necks, that is the main issue with the 6.5 x 284 I use a short neck.

The last issue of the American Rifleman magazine (NRA) had an article on the Weatherby rifles and cartridges. Weatherby's grandson stated that in 1996, after much
debate, the 30-378 Weatherby was offered to the pubic, it fired a 180 gr bullet at 3400 fps. He stated "we sold more 30-378's in the next few years than we did all
other calibers combined".The world record for 1000 yard benchrest shooting was held by a 30-378 Wheaterby magnum for more than thirty years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RCS

The world record for 1000 yard benchrest shooting was held by a 30-378 Wheaterby magnum

---

" Earl Chronister, shooting a .30-378 Weatherby Magnum shot the first ever ten shot 10X with the first nine shot to 3.125 inches and the tenth flyer for an overall group of 4.375 inches. This record stood for over 30 years."

There you go Cinders...have a go. 3.125" for nine at a thousand.

Could anyone here possibly tell me what cartridge this is with the white lead projectile? There is no head stamp that I can see and it has a paper strip at the mouth of the case. I have a 270 Winchester cartridge beside of it for size comparison. This came out of an old house my father-in-law bought and flipped along with several bandoliers of m1909 training blanks. Any help would be greatly appreciated.thanks

Sorry, I forgot the pic with the size comparison.

Closest picture I can find resembling it is a sharps .45-110, but was hoping someone could recognize it. I thought it might fit with this thread as "not often seen".

I gather that's a 30/06 round for comparison, its obviously a paper patch and the lead projie is showing very advanced decay. Its most probably a discontinued line but with out measurements it is hard to judge.

Sorry Jim thats been bested Jim by Charles Greer Feb 13 2021 a perfect score 100.10X at 1000Yds using Berger bullets, sadly I'll never bee that good but I still like saying "Now where did that go?".:madsmile:

The official records Charles set are:

1,000-Yard Heavy Gun 10-Shot Group of 2.6566”, which beat the previous record of 3.650” established by Tim Height in 2019.
1,000-Yard Heavy Gun 10-Shot Score, a perfect 100-10X, eclipsing the long standing 100-6X set by Bill Schrader in 2005.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

I gather that's a 30/06 round for comparison, its obviously a paper patch and the lead projie is showing very advanced decay. Its most probably a discontinued line but with out measurements it is hard to judge.

Sorry Jim thats been bested Jim by Charles Greer Feb 13 2021 a perfect score 100.10X at 1000Yds using Berger bullets, sadly I'll never bee that good but I still like saying "Now where did that go?".:madsmile:

The official records Charles set are:

1,000-Yard Heavy Gun 10-Shot Group of 2.6566”, which beat the previous record of 3.650” established by Tim Height in 2019.
1,000-Yard Heavy Gun 10-Shot Score, a perfect 100-10X, eclipsing the long standing 100-6X set by Bill Schrader in 2005.

---

Thank you for the response cinders,that is a 270 Winchester cartridge beside of it which is basically the same thing as a 30-06 since they gauge the same. Yes it is in very degraded shape and the bandoliers that came out of the same house are not quite as bad of shape but are fairly rough as well. The only thing really salvageable from the bandoliers would be the Borg Warner enblock clips. The straight wall case is what threw me on this one.

If you could measurements of the outside rim diameter and total length of just
the case it would help

My guess is that the cartridge is a 38-55 Winchester

Made this clip up a long time ago interested to know what the differences as the orange tipped are L C (Lake City) 53 are these T10's or M25's.
(Apparently the T10's are collectable)

The Red tipped is S I 42 (? maker), the ones with the cannular showing F N (Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre, Herstal, Belgium) 60 also these tips are like an iridescent red.

The red tipped are also trace but the question is why do the FN's have the cannular showing just above the case neck.

TIA

Thought I could share another aspect of the bits and bobs one ends up with on this military collecting road.
The Italian Red Devil is a very small and light grenade as it is basically made from aluminium with the explosive and frag section separate inside.
I think they had something like a slow match you grab the tag pull to strike the match then hurl it.
Ovidio may be able to elaborate on how they work he may have thrown a few himself!

MkVII 303 round for scale

CINDERS, your S I 42 is really S L for Salt Lake from WW2

The double cannular is often found on US WW2 AP bullets too, reason was better support when striking object

Here is a photo of some WW2 30 cal AP bullets (173 gr) note the second ring or cannelure
on these bullets. The second ring or cannelure is said to provide better support when striking the target.

Note of interest, the AP bullets sell for $1.00 each nowdaysAttachment 120387

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RCS

The second ring or cannelure is said to provide better support when striking the target.

---

I wonder though, because their real purpose is anti armor. When they strike a steel target the jacket is peeled off. Just the core penetrates so the cannelure has no play.

I found out the reason of the second cannelure in M2 AP bullets. The second knurled ring above the crimping was a non mandatory
specification added in 1941 for additional identification of M2 AP cartridges during the change-over from M1 to M2 AP.

S.L. was still using the second cannelure in 1944

All that remains...

The Viven-Bessieres rifle grenade and cup launcher were issued to the French Infantry in 1916 and apparently only used with the Lebel rifle. A standard service 8mm Lebel cartridge was used to launch the rifle grenade as the grenade had a hole through the center. As the bullet passed through the grenade it triggered a 5 to 7 second time fuse. The gas pressure behind the bullet could launch the grenade anywhere from 80 to 190 yards.

There was also a message grenade that was solid and used to send messages from one trench section to another over heavily engaged areas. TAttachment 120455hese grenades contained a fuze which would detonate a small smoke packet so the message grenade could be found. A special crimped cartridge was used with the message grenade as it was not a blank cartridge. My photo shows the 8mm Lebel message cartridge and a standard 8mm service cartridge. Head stamp on the message cartridge is VB 4 17 s

I have the Lebel ball but that launching cartridge HAS to be scarce.

I found a photo (difficult to find) of the V-B message grenade and cartridgeAttachment 120456

Forgot tp add that the US Army also adopted the Viven-Bassieres grenade launcher during WW1, they were made to fit the
Springfield Model 1903 and the US Enfield Model 1917 and also used the leather holster too. The US did not use the message
grenade.

You could the US V-B grenade launcher at gun shows years ago but expensive, the USMC had them until WW2. The Model 1917
rifle V-B launcher was very common to find but rare to find the Model 1903 V-B

Another shelf dweller took a while to get this one together given our geographical location its about 90% complete, missing the arming vane part and firing cartridge.
Worked on a separate cartridge to launch the mortar round which had a range of 500m around 580 yds had a crew of 2.

Pic # 1 complete round with transport cap (303 round for scale)
# 2 disassembled round showing internals.
# 3 Looking up into the nose where the arming system goes through, also shows a
fractured piece possibly extra frag materials.
# 4 Explosive core and fragmentation coils wrapped around it the core would act as
secondary fragmentation pieces as well.

It took me around 4-5 years to get it to this stage so if anyone has an arming mech/vane etc shoot us a PM, they are very hard to source any bits for here.

Well I have been looking at this 303 round for a while trying to make out a who, what and when, as all I could figure with it was 8 F.1 VII.Z.
It plagued me for a fair while and I was going to post it here so RCS or another cartridge collector could have a go and identify it.
I had a good look under a loupe this time and woe and behold found other stuff very faint but there, just on the edge of the rim is a very faint G and a very faint 1 by the 8.

So the headstamp reads G 18 F.1 VII.Z so it is;
G F.1 Government Cartridge Factory N°1, probably Enfield, UK 1918 headstamp
MkVII round Z = Nitrocellulose loaded with the Spitzer.

I am not sure if it is a particularly rare or scarce round but considering its a MKVII from WWI and 1918 the last year of the war I am pretty happy.
Are they a scarce one.

I have not seen your headstamp, it seems to me that WW1 303 headstamps have not been easy to find, same for the German 7,92x57 WW1 headstamps

My friend in Florida got a few of these cartridges from a French gun collector some years ago and gave me this example. I was able to find out from another French collector, who was able to identify this cartridge.

It is the Mle 1895 2nd type spherical lead ball with a reduced load for use at 15 meters. The headstamp is UZ 3 18, it must have been manufactured for some time. I was unable to find any other reference or details. In almost twenty years now, I have never seen another.Attachment 120652Attachment 120653Attachment 120654

Some other gear that came along from a WWII armourer I used to visit him at his house come gunsmith shop, he had scads of awesome gear sadly all broken up by his useless son.
Both are signal cartridges one aluminium the other paper,

Aluminium one ~ Schermuly, SIG CART ILLUMINATING 26.5MM & 1 IN LOT 617 DEC 1981
(Never twigged the serial of this cartridge is 617 Guy Gibson's Dam Busters Sqdn)

Paper one ~ I.M.I 4/66 ILLUM (Line out O.W.15.A)

Were these hand fired from a flare pistol or mounted on a vehicle discharger!

RCS they remind me of what Elmer Keith once talked about Gallery Cartridges very reduced load so they could safely be fired inside a shed or barn with full sized rifles Elmer used that type of load in his pistols to practice indoors with his handguns.
Just enough power he said with his handgun load to punch the round ball level with the top of the linoleum, I have read somewhere about these cartridges for the rifles in one of my cartridges and ballistic books but goodness knows which one!

303 MkVII for scale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CINDERS

Paper one ~ I.M.I 4/66 ILLUM (Line out O.W.15.A)

Were these hand fired from a flare pistol or mounted on a vehicle discharger!

---

I have one twice that length that is intended for handheld flare gun use...so yes, hand held. Not many shoulder fired and the same ones were used in mounted launchers. Some cases the flare gun had mounting lugs for the vehicle.

I have used a chamber insert in both 30-06 and 303 cal rifles, which will allow you to shoot 32 ACP or 32 S&W short (also have one for 32 S&W long in 30-06). These are quite accurate at around 20 feet. My photos show the targetsAttachment 120835Attachment 120836Attachment 120837Attachment 120838

Many years ago, I met Elmer Keith at one of the NRA Conventions. He was talking to a small group about his first rifle or I should say carbine which was a Springfield Model 1873 45-70 carbine. He was really a good talker to listen too. His face was scarred really bad from a fire many years ago

I have a 1969 guns & ammo yearly one where Elmer talks about big game hunting and cartridges and some of his early escapades when taken and imprisoned by an unruly person they Elmer ended up shooting him with a manufactured cartridge, *(38 in a 45)* the gunfights he saw where he said that size of the pistols cartridge did matter and more quite the stories.
I have a few of his books but I think the jewel of them is "Hell I Was There", if you know anything about Elmer he was awfully lucky to survive the arson hotel fire, he was badly burned around the hands I think the right one received the worst of it so much so the tendons shrunk due to the burning and formed his hand into a claw.
When told it could not be fixed and would be like that for good that was not what he wanted to hear, so at home Elmer had his father bend all of his fingers backwards until things broke and popped to which at great length through sheer grit and working that hand Elmer got pretty much full use out of it again.

If you have not got a copy of that book get one it is about an American Legend a Montana cowboy of which there will never be another, I rank him up there with James Corbett in the daring do's they did in their lives which would make a normal person among us shrink away into the shadows.

* The story Elmer told was he was captive with another lad and somewhere some how they found a 45 LC Colt handgun they had 1 x 38 cartridge so they wrapped the cartridge in paper until the hull could just be driven into one chamber of the cylinder.
When the chance appeared in Elmers words roughly "When it was fired the slug wobbled its way down the barrel and did its job"*

Developed during the early part of WW1 by the French by using their black powder 11x59r Gras rifle cartridge into a smokeless machine gun cartridge to be used against German observation balloons. With the larger diameter bullet incendiary and tracer could be used on the German balloons. The first machine gun to use this cartridge was the French Model 1914 Hotchkiss machine gun.

Later Colt converted some 7,62x54 cal Vickers (cancelled order from Russia) machine guns to use the new cartridge now called the Colt 11.43 mm (11x59r). Some 1200 of the 11mm Vickers having reached France by 1918. Some American flyers used two Vickers 11mm guns in the Nieuport 28 while some SPAD 13's used one in 303 cal and the other in 11mm cal. A special metal link was also designed (very rare to find). After the Great War, the 11mm Vickers
was obsolete. My photos show the 8mm Lebel and 11mm Vickers, note the Western 1917 head stamp.Attachment 120872Attachment 120873

Be plenty of those here that would have fired one of these during their service.
84mm Carl Gustav illumination round which was part of a job lot I picked up a while ago from a member here.
Its in pretty good nik with the chute still attached as is the case pretty surprised at just how light the case is.
Anyhoow! just another piece in the ordnance collection that has found a good home here.
303 MKVII for scale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

84mm Carl Gustav illumination round

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To me, that's a very rare round. Something we taught the troops during 84 classes but had nothing to show them. I don't even know of them being used by our guys in Afghanistan. Nice piece...

I have 3 Boys A/T rifle rounds in the collection 1 prac round and couple of others one I have mounted in a cartridge board I did up years ago.

The prac round is RG 43 WII ~ Radwaygreen 1943 WII I gather denotes A/P projectile

Other one is K 42 WII ~ Kynoch 1942 as above for the WII

The Boys projectile is .55" just a tad bigger than the 50 cal.
So they are about but you do not see many of them now days think the going rate is about $70/$80 per other round the practice one may be worth a bit more due to amount produced.

A story I read somewhere = In WWII there was a place where the GI's were on 1 island and the Japanese on another island.
Rumour has it they were out of effective S/A fire and took great pleasure teasing the GI's by swimming in the ocean flaunting it.
So for some reason they had a .55 Boys but no ammo for it, however the armourers rigged up a 50 cal browning barrel to it and sighted it in.

The next time the Japanese soldiers flaunted we can bathe here the G.I's with their bubba'd Boys knocked a couple of the swimmers off they never swam there again.
Don't know how true it was but it would have been funny the ol mate swimming then getting smacked with a 750 grain 50 cal projectile.....

As usual 303 MkVII for scale.

(I only expanded the nomenclature for those just learning about head stamps and factories.)

Good story. 30-06 bullet will go as far as a Boys' will I believe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

A story I read somewhere

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I'd read another about a Jap sniper taking Aussies at leisure until a digger decided to use a .55 to end it. He shot through the tree sheltering the sniper...

Here are my three. Left is a solid brass DP (drill) round. Only one I've ever seen and came to me in a classic "Shoebox of stuff". Center is a Kynoch '43 of which we've seen so many. Right is a Dominion Arsenal '42 drill round, common enough. I had no idea these were worth so much now...

Maybe you guy's can recognise this round. It's 1" diameter ogive, copper jacket lead core.
Appears to be 1940 date. I believe it's a 25mm Hotchkiss anti tank round.

Attachment 120976Attachment 120977



Note: the tape is only there to stop the ogive dropping inside the case when on display!

Attachment 120978

I found this on Wikipedia. Caption states: The British Army in France 1939 Men of the 2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers training on a French 25mm SA 34 anti-tank gun, 4 November 1939.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 30Three

Maybe you guy's can recognise this round

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25x194/(193) rimmed? Here's some info that might help... https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...gun-id/35668/6

https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...itank-gun/6300

Here's one for sale... Cannon Ammunition 13 - 20 mm

Nice piece...

I agree it being an 25mm Hotckkiss A/T round.

Shell: 25 × 193.5 mm R, AP
Crew: 4
Caliber: 25 mm (0.98 in)
Barrel length: 1.8 m (5 ft 11 in) 72 caliber

CN = Unknown Factory, France
LM = Cartoucherie du Mans, Le Mans, France

Thanks; yes that confirms what I thought it might be. It looks like an overgrown .303 round!

So there's one at 125 pounds 175 for the other one in the add. I guess I got a bargain! Think I paid 6 Euros in 2019.

To me the magic is it being a live loaded cartridge. I know that's not possible in some places, this one too if you don't have a firearms license. I have two 13mm WW1 anti armor rifle cartridges and one is factory correct, one has no powder. the live one is far more valuable to me. Still, I'd take one like yours out of comparative rarity. You never see them here.

I am certain that I must have posted these photos before, but about five years ago, i made two dummy cartridges. The first was the German 7,92x94mm anti tank round that had the small pellet of tear gas in the bullet. Once the bullet went through the armor, the tear gas would force the crew to abandon the tank (which did not work out in actual combat) This cartridge was the 13mm German anti tank cartridge made by necking it down to 7,92mm and rimless.

The second cartridge that I made was the Polish 7,92x107mm which had a 225 gr bullet at 4180 fps. It was fired in the Polish bolt action rifle KB wz 35.
Photo: 7,92x57, 7,92x107 and 7,92x94
Attachment 120986

Overbore or what I bet there was plenty of throat wear running those hot rounds.
Nice ones though RCS.