ATF C&R Inspection this is how it went down LONG!

First of all from the C&R reg handbook section 478.23 a. through d. details the inspection and the "rights" of "ANY ATF Officer" In a nut shell IF they are not aware of any violation they may inspect during "business hours" also construed as "when you are home" your premises, once during a 12 month period. 478.23 subsection (c) states;(c) may enter during hours of operation the premises, including places of storage, of any licensed collector for the purpose of inspecting or examining the records, documents, firearms, and ammunition referred to in paragraph (a) of this section (1) for ensuring compliance with the recordkeeping requirements of this part not more than once during any 12-month period or (2) when such inspection or examination may be required for determining the disposition of one or more particular firearms in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in the closest proximity to the collector’s premises.
IF they only want to see your book you can take it to thier office.
So Agent arrives, shows me his ATF ID and business card, we chit chat about C&R Regs and any questions I have, I educate him to the fact I didn't have to book in C&R's that I owned prior to getting the C&R FFL, confirmed via phone with his boss, he thanked me for that info. He wanted to know how many acquitions and dispositions in the last 12 months. Then we took my Bound Book and review the book vs what I have on site. I had already laid it all out in order of aquisition so that was quick, passed 100%. We then went through a check list of regs he had to "discuss" with me. HE DID NOT ask to see ammo, storage or anything but the bound book and my collection. The Agent said these are "random checks", he thanked me for my time 1.5 hours and left. So as long as you are living up to the terms of your C&R FFL regs you shouldn't have a problem. For those who haven't you should do an audit of your book vs collection as when they call you won't have time to get it together once they've made contact with you. Stalling might provoke a warrant search. This agent wasa medic at Ft Lewis , so we talked medical stuff and it went much better than I first anticipated. Hope this info helps. BB

Good report RD. It just shows that if you follow the regs, and have your paperwork in order, there is no problem. It also helps to know the rules.
Thanks for the info!

Dean (the other one)
OFC-Orange County Chapter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roadawg

Then we took my Bound Book and review the book vs what I have on site. I had already laid it all out in order of aquisition so that was quick, passed 100%.

---

Just wondering did the agent request to view firearms or had you already laid them out for viewing? As I mentioned in other post, they (ATF) never looked at my hardware. Wondering now, why... if I just had to many (well over 50 including pistols) for him to bother with. Or I hadn't made it to the BIG Times yet with a collection of over 100.

It's probably worth putting all your C&Rs out, away from your regular "gun area", to prevent any intrusion into stuff that is not relevant.
And what's the ammunition concern? What ammo regulations or licensing are they checking?

I'm curious why anyone would invite this level of government intrusion
into their lives so you can save on tranfer fees? Unless you live 100 miles
from the nearest FFL it seems weird to do this. What's the attraction to
having a piece of paper to buy firearms that can be bought without it.

2barearms, my thoughts exactly. I don't even put my weapons on my insurance policy. If I am a victim of a break in, Iguess I'll suffer the loss. They will have to haul out a safe anchored in concrete !!!. I stated a day or two ago that my purchases or legal and I pay a FFl dealer a fee of $20.00 to handle any out of state transactions.
But everyone to his or her choice on this matter.

john

I gave my C&R up some years ago. Probably too late as I am on their radar now. The way things are and the way they are getting, worse, its no time to have the Government knowing where the guns are. The little money you save is not worth it. However you must remember that when you go thru an FFL dealer, THEY WILL find you! I have only purchased at gun shows, for years, thru the "loop hole". hehehe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2barearms

I'm curious why anyone would invite this level of government intrusion
into their lives so you can save on tranfer fees? Unless you live 100 miles
from the nearest

---

A). As a C&R, the prices I pay for things aren't the prices YOU pay for things!

B). And this is the biggie. That C&R is the difference between having a quirky, but generally harmless hobby that Law Enforcement could care less about, and "Anonymous Tip Leads to Raid on Suburban Arsenal....Film at 11!".

John

Hey, if you're on this website, there's already an electronic trail to your guns. A C&R saves time, effort, and money. Well, maybe not money. I've got lots more guns now than I would have without one!

Actually the most important thing with having a C&R license in my opinion is that you can go to any gun show in any other state and buy a C&R gun and walk out of the show with it, no waiting period or having it sent to a dealer in your state, and/or if bought one on line or from someone out of state you can have it mailed directly to you. That includes C&R class three's.
That is a big benefit to me, Ray

For several reasons, I have never gotten a C&R license. Am I on "their" radar? Sure, and I have been for years for reasons having nothing to do with guns; I have my FBI dossier number written down someplace - saves them from looking it up when they put me through another update.

BUT, none of that entitles "them" to come to my house without a warrant and check my records, or demand to see my guns. While compliance inspections of C&R holders are very uncommon (I personally know of no one who has been through one), they are authorized in the law, and I would rather not have the bother.

Jim

My favourite story about that.
A sweet young thing from the ATF went into the local gun shop with a list and my name was on it. She asked about what guns I was buying. The clerk replied "he only buys antiques." I was in good company since two others on the list were an Air Force Colonel from the base, and a FBI firearms instructor!;)

I am guessing I got their attention because I bought two No1Mk3 Lee Enfields on the same day:D

Saving on transfer fees is no small thing where I live. The cheapest is $50. Plus there are the discounts from Brownell's and Midway, which save me a lot.
Its also nice not having to fill out the 4473, and the dealer not having to do the NICS call.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 7.62 NATO

Just wondering did the agent request to view firearms or had you already laid them out for viewing? As I mentioned in other post, they (ATF) never looked at my hardware. Wondering now, why... if I just had to many (well over 50 including pistols) for him to bother with. Or I hadn't made it to the BIG Times yet with a collection of over 100.

---

When the Agent called to set up the inspection I asked what he wanted to see, reply: your Bound Book and "inventory". So I had it all organized when he got here. My collection is MUCH smaller then it used to be and most sales happened prior to 12 months ago and none at a gun show, all shipped or sold to an FFL holder duly recorded in the book. He didn't even look at transactions made prior to 12 months ago. He did mention that I should put the full name and address in the Acquisition side as some enteries just said AIM, blah blah Ohio OR just CMP. Which of course makes sense if they have to investigate where a firearm actually came from. ALL Disposititons were logged out to FFL's.

Why do I have a C&R FFL? Well I used to have an 01 FFL but Kalif. made that untenable due to low volume sales. So I got the C&R because I was actively collecting up until last year or so (1995-2008). With it I bypassed transfer and Kalif fees to the tune of $50+ per item. I many many times paid dealer prices from distibutors for firearms and ammo, parts or supplies, etc. When I purchase a C&R pistol out of state I pay $14 to register it with the state instead of ALL the dealer markup or dealer transfer fees. I recently bought a non C&R 22 handgun which would have cost me about $180 through a distributor. Although it was a modern handgun they seemed willing to sell it to me at the sales flier price, but had none is stock. SO I went to my freindly 01 FFL and he found one for me, when I got to the 01 FFLs place, between the Kalif Fees and Dealer markup (full list! Not the 10% er like it used to be) the price was $350! I rationalized the purchase as I hadn' given the guy much business recently so I paid the price and I really wanted THAT pistol.
The Agent did say they would like you to keep a list of currently owned C&R's which were acquired prior to getting your C&R FFL. The experience was pleasant, non adversarial and informative on HIS part. I've been through so many hospital inspections in the past 38 years I KNOW how handle inspections as long as I know the rules before hand.
Each to his own, I don't condem anyone for NOT having a FFL or FOR having one. I KNOW what it has done for me and I play by the rules :rolleyes: So I have nothing to worry about. I hope some of this was helpful. BB

One poster stated just spend the 20 dollars and go through your atf. Here is what I have to do in CA. The only FFL where I live charges 100 per transfer and he is busy. I have to make two or three trip threre. First to pay and get also the info. Then I have to get fingerprinted, and wait ten business days for my prints to come back clear from the state DOJ. With the C and R there is no fee and the rifle goes directly to me. I have my stuff in order so a visit from the ATF is a chance I will take. People who don't live in CA don't see the point. I hope this clears it up.