1898 Krag with "E 21" on the buttstock

Hello,

I recently inherited several firearms. After I determined the manufacture dates of each and other basic characteristics, I am trying to find out more about each one.

This one is an 1898 Springfield Krag, S/N 430058, from that could check the manufacture year as 1902. After I removed what looked like urethane on the stock (which was all gummy and sticky), I found several markings, including the cartouche, the inspector's mark "B" (right? I thought it was usually "P"?) behind the trigger guard, what looks like "N J" on the butt plate, and an "E 21" on the top of rear of the stock. The barrel band is marked "U" and I could not find any markings on the bolt. I cannot find any information regarding the "E 21", or the "N J" for that matter. Any thoughts?

Much appreciated,

Alex

Nice looking rifle, the yellow on it is probably hardened motor oil used for rifle oil. Comes off with acetone. The number is probably a rack number and the NJ is likely the National guard of NJ... Serial number draws nothing from SRS. Others will be along.

+1 on browningautorifle's comments.

'Alex' - You inherited a serviceable looking U.S. Model 1898 Krag Rifle.
Your Krag, #430058, was likely assembled around December 1902 to January 1903.
The Joseph Sumner Adams [J.S.A. - 1903] 'acceptance cartouche', stamped on your stock, shows nice agreement with the production period of your receiver.
That is a script 'circled P' (proof mark) stamped behind your trigger-guard; it indicates the rifle was function tested.

The 'U' on the barrel-band is an assembly aid. It should be on the right-side of the rifle, with the open-end pointing toward the muzzle.

The 'N.J.' stamp indicates use by the New Jersey National Guard. The 'E21' is likely a 'company-rack number'.

Your rear-sight is the model 1901 (Buffington-type sight), which is very popular with target shooters and influenced model 1903 Springfield rifle sight design.

Enjoy your family Krag!

Excellent, many thanks to you all for the insights / information. Being able to understand these details makes a big difference. I do know that it is been in our family since the 1940s or so.

It does look like it is certainly in good shape, and was happy that the urethane wiped right off with just rubbing alcohol as it had become sticky and mottled -- perhaps the urethane, in its deteriorated state, bled and yellowed some of the metal? See the attached "before" pic.

Will take it out soon if, that is, I can find ammo -- this was one of the pieces that didn't have any ammo with it. I only found one online source with in-stock 30-40: HSM 180gr flat nose. Should I wait and find a different grade or is that fine?

Thanks again.

'Alex' - Hints on disassembly:
First the stock can be removed by sliding barrel-bands forward to the front-sight and removing the two trigger guard screws.
(The front-sight blade height prevents the front-band from being removed. If necessary, the front-sight blade can be removed by driving the small tapered-pin, left to right, with a fine drift-punch).

The rear barrel-band is moved forward by removing the sling-swivel & screw. The band can be spread slightly to clear the stock cross-pin.

Krag wooden hand-guards are fragile and age makes them more so. Do Not 'snap' a hand-guard on and off the barrel.
Remove the rear-sight screws & sight. Soften-up old storage grease coating the barrel with solvent or mineral spirits.
The hand-guard can be slid forward down the barrel taper, toward the muzzle, where it is easily removed.

Store the loose hand-guard with a Quarter and a Penny twisted into the barrel spring-clips to counter the strong inward spring tension.

Reassemble in reverse order, making sure the action and barrel are nicely seated in stock. Firmly tighten the front guard-screw. The rear-screw should just be snug. If over-tightened, the barrel will be 'levered' upward, off the stock-channel.

Ah, thanks. I got as far as the front barrel band and the front-blade stumped me -- so it needs a tap with a pin punch, got it. And noted on the hand guard. In fact, on my 1942 M1903 Modified (which I will post together with the 1919 Mark 1 on their respective forum), the rear of the upper hand guard is a bit loose and thus has a 1/8" of play between it and the barrel, so perhaps it had been damaged from a hasty disassembly.

Will be interesting to try this followed by the M1903 and the M1917 for comparison.

220gr was the military bullet weight. Doesn't mean you can't shoot any other as long as its safe.

Thanks Daan, I did find some Remington so will try to grab that.

And "Browning" ... I found the probable culprit for the yellowing ... when I disassembled the bolt, the spring was coated with brownish-yellow liquid nastiness that dripped out of it, certainly would pass as motor oil. And the yellow spots on the metal came right off with diluted lacquer thinner and a q-tip. I was careful to just soak up the yellow and not polish the patina off. Thanks for the tip.

Also, found an "A" on the underside of the bolt lever.

U.S. Krag Bolt markings just seem to have been utilized to identify different 'manufacturing batches' of bolts. The bolts were all made at Springfield Armory.

Only some early model 1892 Krags, (not in production until 1894), had the bolt numbered to match receiver.

There are evolutionary changes in bolts from model 1892, model 1896, to model 1898/1899.

The 1898/1899 bolt will work in earlier actions.

Thanks -- its looking great now that it has been cleaned further and the finish has settled into a more normal color for its age than when I first took off the urethane. I have two boxes of ammunition on the way, and will follow your advice on disassembling it to be able to clean it properly prior to taking it to the range.

Enjoy your Krag! It likely saw use, back in the day, on the Sea Girt Range in New Jersey.

Attachment 120842

Quote:

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Originally Posted by butlersrangers

the Sea Girt Range

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Is that where they did the testing with Trapdoors? Shooting some ridiculous distance?

I don't know about the testing of Model 1873 Springfield Rifles. After Creedmore Range in New York was closed down, Sea Girt, New Jersey became quite the Hot Bed of U.S. Rifle Shooting.

Most of the early National Matches, starting in 1903, were held there, until Camp Perry opened around 1907-08.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rcathey

Shooting some ridiculous distance?

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As experience and knowledge catches up with us, I often wonder what the purpose of military rifle sights beyond 300meters was. What was the purpose except for competition? I know about volley firing at extreme distances but examples are rare. And claiming adjusting 'windage' as an essential to military rifle sights is clearly a contradiction to teaching riflemen to aim off for wind.

I haven't researched this but examples of planned combat rifle use past about 200meters is rare, that is why we have machineguns and mortars.

Anybody have facts for this? Opinions welcome, but facts would be nice.

I was mistaken. This testing was performed on a beach at Sandy Hook:

http://usarmorment.com/pdf/45-70.pdf

IIRC - During some South African War battles, 'Boer' Riflemen inflicted very heavy casualties and 'pinned down' massed British Troops with accurate long range fire, likely at 500 to 1,000 yards.
In some situations, the clever 'Boers' prepared the 'battlefield', by marking the approaches to their positions with seemingly discarded tin pie-plates, accurately marking the distances at 100 yard intervals.

With accurate & well sighted model 1893 Mausers, quality 7mm ammo, open ground with marked ranges, it is easy to imagine how skilled shooters in good defensive positions could "Rain Hell" on massed infantry.

British Infantry rifles from the earliest Lee-Metfords to pre-WW1 Short Magazine Lee-Enfields and Pattern 1914 Enfields carried long range auxiliary 'volley sights'. I am not aware if these 'off-set' sights were ever used effectively.
They were later dispensed with during war-time manufacture and later removed during FTR/rebuilding.

Improvements and changes in machinegun use and artillery tactics did much to make what once seemed good ideas with rifle sights seem rather silly.

BTW - This thread started with a Krag-Jorgensen rifle. It should be mentioned that a number of Scandinavian arms were equipped with 'volley sights'. This would apply to arms like the Danish Rolling-Block rifles. Some of the proto-type Krag-Jorgensen rifles also contained this feature.

Springfield Armory has Krag-Jorgensen rifle, serial #100, which is believed to be "Krag-Jorgensen test rifle #5". This rifle design was further refined and adopted, as U.S. magazine rifle - Model of 1892.
The prototype rifle, serial number 100, has an off-set notch on the rear-sight 'slide' and a 'blade' on the front barrel-band. (Unfortunately, the Springfield Armory proto-type rifle has its front barrel-band on backwards, so the auxiliary 'blade' is on the wrong side of the rifle).

The original rear-sight used on the U.S. model 1892 magazine-rifle, (Krag-Jorgensen), has a lot of metal on the right-end of the elevation 'slide'. IMHO - This is a vestige from the proto-type sight, that was 'notched' in this area to serve as a volley-fire sight.
It is noteworthy that the U.S. did not utilize 'off-set' volley sights on their arms, but, came to relish and celebrate long-range target matches, like the Palma Match.

Attachment 120896Attachment 120897

Very interesting. As I happen to have it right here, here's a pic of the sight for a 1894 St Denis Mauser that was re-configured by the French for the Uraguayan army (if I'm not mistaken).

It has the ladder sights on it and interestingly, when laid down, the different positions of the slider will set the sight at what looks like the different levels below the 9 on the ladder.

Butlersrangers
True, the Boer were riflemen used to small group fighting and no or minimum casualties. Therefore, longer distances to keep them away. Engaging the enemy at a distance and then withdrawing not to commit forces. Lots of individual thinking and action. The long distance formal battles were the exception.
On the other hand the British were very much used to massed columns and squares in battle. Volleys fired on command, little individual shooting. Took them some years to partially adapt.
Two very different cultures meeting on the battlefield.
Still wondering what mad the powers that be decide on the massive distances required for rifle sights. There must have been some creative unthinking with widely unrelated conclusions based on hearsay facts to decide on that.

I allow myself to post some photos of my KJ, also dated 1902...
Attachment 120942Attachment 120943Attachment 120944Attachment 120945
there are two things in common between yours and mine!

Sweet -- these may have been same batch delivered to the NJ Guard, at least they most probably were in use there at the same time.

Some apparently good ideas don't always pan out.
Late 19th Century Smokeless Powder cartridges, with Jacketed Projectiles of 6mm to 8mm diameter, had flatter trajectories, traveled for miles, and retained killing velocity and penetration.
(This was a change from the performance of the large caliber, lead projectile, Black Powder military cartridges of the 1866 to 1888 era).

I think it rather understandable that Ordnance-Engineer Types would try to harness potential and created issue barrel-mounted sights, with maximum calibrations on the scale of 2,000 or even 2,700 yards.
The auxiliary off-set "barrage-sights", also, seemed plausible and might allow massed troops to 'blanket' a prominent target, 3,500 yards away.

I agree with 'Daan Kemp' that this probably proved to be not so effective on standard infantry arms. (50 to 100 yards, in heavy cover or building rubble, is a very realistic combat shooting distance).

Many countries, during warfare, used a 'Battle Setting' on their rear-sights.
When utilized and the riflemen aimed at the 'midsection' of a man-size target, hits might register from 'point-blank' to nearly 500 yards.
It didn't really matter, if you hit an enemy combatant in the head or foot.
A seriously wounded enemy was immobilized. He would 'tie-up' his country's resources and take a number of support people out of the 'action'.

Attached is a photo of the early Danish rear-sight for their model 1889 Krag-Jorgensen. In addition to the calibrations on the leaf, there is an 'off-set' notch.
This auxiliary notch is used with a 'blade' or aiming point on the front barrel-band, for 'massed barrage firing', to inconvenience the enemy beyond 2,000 yards.

Evolution in Machinegun & Artillery development and tactics makes these early small-bore rifle sight features look comical, but, at the time (IMHO), they were reasonable.

Attachment 120958

Finally was able to take the 1898 to the range. After a slight adjustment to the windage (interesting that it seems to be designed for one-handed, on-the-fly adjustment), it was spot on and was able to get a nice grouping. I was also shooting the M1903 so could get a nice comparison. The 1898 is amazingly stable and balanced and a joy to shoot. Was shooting HSM 180gr flat nose, the only available that I could find.

Thank you all for the advice and information!