New member with a question - Lee Speed Carbine: Jameson Raid and other questions

Acquired a Number 3 trade pattern BSA Lee Speed carbine earlier in the year and trying to piece together the story.

Appears to have been in both Boer and Commonwealth forces (Doyle Scouts) hands, refer to attached photos. There is a slim probability it may have been one of the captured carbines of the Jameson Raid? Serial number 1304.

Have been down the google rabbit hole of investigation regarding the markings on the carbine, with success, but one exception.

The last marking has everyone stumped, the V in the circle on the right hand of breech.

Could this be a mark for Vickers Steel?

Anyone'sAttachment 120996Attachment 120997Attachment 120998Attachment 120999Attachment 121000Attachment 121001Attachment 121002 opinion and any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

The butt carvings look like multiple owners. At least three different ones.

Super rifle!
I have been collecting lee speeds for a few years now and would love to find a carved one.

Thanks for posting.

Glad someone didn't toss that buttstock along the way. Neat little carbine.

Thanks for the comments, if any of you know the answer to the "V" circle proof mark on the left side it would be appreciated.
Additionally, if anyone knows anything about J Kelly, Trooper 2029 0f the Doyle Scouts, 2nd Boer war, it will be of enormous assistance.

Apologies if this is the wrong forum.

Acquired a Number 3 trade pattern BSA Lee Speed carbine earlier in the year and trying to piece together the story.

Appears to have been in both Boer and Commonwealth forces (Doyle Scouts) hands, refer to attached photos. There is a slim probability it may have been one of the captured carbines from the Jameson Raid? Serial number 1304.

Have been down the google rabbit hole of investigation regarding the markings on the carbine, with success, but one exception.

The last marking has everyone stumped, the V in the circle on the right hand of breech.

Could this be a mark for Vickers Steel?

Wow--great rifle!

Well, obviously a Boer War veteran, but doubtful that it's a Jameson Raid rifle. First, the BSA records indicate that they sold Lee-Speed sporting rifles and military configuraton Lee-Metfords to the British So. Africa Company prior to the raid, but no evidence of trade pattern carbines in this order. Anything is possible in the world of Lee-Enfields, of course, but unlikely. But the more compelling evidence is that this rifle is marked BSA Co. on the wrist, and at the time of the raid, the company was known as BSA&M, and the rife would have been so stamped. Much more likely that this carbine was privately purchased (by someone on either side) on the eve of the Boer War, and it could have changed owners along the way. I am also curious to learn more about "J Kelly, Trooper 2029 0f the Doyle Scouts." The number on the buttstock clearly indicates service life (as if the carving were not sufficient evidence). Private purchases were not necessarily to an individual---could have been to equip a unit.

FWIW, I have collected info on other Lee-Speeds with 13xx serial numbers and they are all trade pattern carbines too. Now the encircled V mark is not a proof mark (the Proof House didn't use such a mark). I wish I knew exactly what it meant, but I have been researching it for some years without success. Each time I think I have it figured out, I'll discover some new rifle specimen that sinks the hypothesis, and it's back to the drawing board. I think--for now--it's best to concur with Ian that it is a private BSA viewer's mark. But there is still a mystery to solve, because not every BSA barrel has it. [For everyone asking why the Lee-Speed book is so much delayed, it's because I'm trying to crack this puzzle! :)] By any chance is there an encircled E mark on the other side of the barrel? Could you post a pic of that side?

Four more questions: 1) Is there a number or letter on the top-rear flat part of the action (where the bolt slides in)? You just need to raise the bolt handle and look beneath.
2) Have you removed the fore-end? If so, I'd like to know if there are any numbers beneath the wood, where the barrel meets the action.
3) Is the bolt matching? If not, what is the number on the bolt handle?
4) What is the barrel length, and what is the overall length? Let's make certain it is actually a trade pattern carbine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wallace66

The last marking has everyone stumped, the V in the circle on the right hand of breech.

Could this be a mark for Vickers Steel?

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I'm inclined to think it's a W for a cord worn barrel.

Anybody?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Strangely Brown

I'm inclined to think it's a W for a cord worn barrel.

Anybody?

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It doesn't look like a W to me - I'd say definitely a V.

Ron Bester in his definitive book, "Small Arms of the Anglo-Boer War", writes, among other things, that the arms used by Jameson and his group were most probably BSA&M sporting Lee Metfords with flat-top ribs in the 7100 serial number range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobD

Ron Bester in his definitive book, "Small Arms of the Anglo-Boer War", writes, among other things, that the arms used by Jameson and his group were most probably BSA&M sporting Lee Metfords with flat-top ribs in the 7100 serial number range.

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The men immediately accompanying Jameson had the sporting rifles but the commercial (Long) Lee-Metfords were also used in the operation. Many of them were smuggled into Johannesburg to be used in the uprising that never occurred. These rifles were captured and distributed.

If I recall correctly, the rifles belonging to the Reform Committee are thought to be the commercial version of BSA&M MLM 1* and serial numbers in the 1000 - 2000 range. They were confiscated and re-issued to the ZARPs.

Jc5,

Invaluable, thanks for your information, it has made my day.

Yes, refer to additional photo's. The action has a G 852 (a small single indent is rear above the 2) Attachment 121169Attachment 121170Attachment 121171Attachment 121172at the rear of the breech and a circle E on the right hand side of the breech.

All matching numbers. Will remove the wood, when time permits and get back to you.

Jc5,

Invaluable, thanks for your information, it has made my day.

Yes, refer to additional photo's. The action has a G 852 (a small single indent is rear above the 2) at the rear of the breech and a circle E on the right hand side of the breech.

All matching numbers, bolt, breech, barrel. Will remove the wood, when time permits and get back to you.

JC5/Wallace,

I too have an officers commercial carbine. I picked this up 2 years ago. No indications it was involved in the jameson raid or any south african service. It too has the V within a circle on the right side of the barrel, and the E within a circle on the left. Early carbine with a 3-digit serial number.

On a different note; I also have a MLE Carbine Mk I* produced in 1897. The top of the stock disc is marked 6 over 1899, and below that is B.S.A. Co. Any theories as to what this would indicate? It's not listed in "the broad arrow." It is a military carbine, with military inspections and sold-out-of-service marks. This disc was on the carbine when I purchased it in 1992.

I was never able to identify this marking, and had since forgotten about it, until this thread. Attached are the pics (sight cover is a repro).

Strangely Brown,

Yes it is definitely a V in a circle with and E in a circle on the opposite side, refer to additional photo's provided in the thread.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:21 PM ----------

smle addict,

6 1899 - month /year of issue from stores
BSA Co - company of manufacture
18 - Rack Number?

Interested to see Wallace's trade pattern carbine with the Boer War trophy carvings.
I have a carbine from the same batch but unmodified apart from hard use marks.
It is marked in the usual BSA commercial manner with the serial (475) on the action and barrel (hidden under the wood) and on the rear sight, cocking piece and under the bolt handle.
The butt tang is marked R132 in the same font and the action flat under the bolt is (G)120.
Regards everybody - Rowdy

I have been researching the encircled V mark for some years, along with the encircled E mark that almost always accompanies it. I have been steadily developing and eliminating various theories. All sorts of collectors and experts have offered their opinions, but I am convinced that (so far) none of them know for certain. I doubt there is anyone left alive who remembers for sure, and the number of men who actually ever knew this information was probably very small. This was a long time ago. I'm sure the very last of these rifles was made prior to WWII. From examining specimens and weighing the various theories, I believe the following to be true:

1) They are not proof marks
2) They are not likely to be government view marks, although I once suspected they might have something to do with government inspection
3) They have nothing to do with Metford or Enfield rifling
4) I have seen at least the V on a .22, though it might have been stamped there on the original .303 barrel before it was converted
5) They do not stand for "Enfield" and "Vickers"

Unless some archival discovery occurs, only time and sufficient collection of data will tell.

Rowdy -- I hope you are well. We are past due for a catch up call.
SMLE addict - I am not sure I sent you a proper reply to the great info you sent me a while ago on your Lee Speeds. My apologies--time just gets away. I will email you.

SMLE addict, I think your stock disc on your carbine reads:
June 1899
British South Africa Company
Inventory or rack number 18

My reasons are
1. At this date, BSA was known as BSA&M Co. It became BSA without the M in 1902.
2. I've not seen a stock disc with the manufacturer's name on it

However, against this theory is that the British South Africa Company is usually (but not always) abbreviated BSAC or BSA Co without punctuation between the initials

In addition, your carbine is very likely to have been made by BSA&M Co, as BSA&M Co made most if not all the long arms destined for South Africa. Could you start a thread on your carbine showing all the markings?

Rob

PS The British South Africa Company actively participated in the South African War which broke out in Oct 1899, and the Crown was actively arming loyal forces in the months preceding the war. A list of British South Africa Company units who fought is here Anglo Boer War - British South Africa Company units

Thanks for the info, Rob! That certainly helps clarify things. I will start a separate thread when I can dig that carbine out of the safe in the next couple of days.

The carbine is an Enfield manufactured MLE Carbine Mk I. Enfield produced the service carbines for military service, with BSA and LSA producing the "volunteer" patterns. So this one had me scratching my head for years. I continually asked myself, "why would an enfield produed carbine be wearing a stock disc with a BSA manufacture marking?" Of course, I realize this disc may have been swapped in in over the years, but it's been there since I bought it in 1992.

Thanks again

In NZ Lee Speeds are encountered with the R marking on the butt tang and it is thought that these rifles are those which were issued to NZ forces from Rhodesian supplies since the NZers only had Martini enfield carbines when they turned up.

Thank you for that possible connection Roy - and being NZers they took their rifles home with them of course.

Thank you all for your assistance and apologies for not having posted earlier, but life is never simple.

Eventually contacted the Australian War Memorial, Canberra, for assistance with the rifle identification and informed it was of cultural significance.

So, as one should, it was donated to the AWM in late June 2022.

It is with considerable pride, as a citizen of the Commonwealth, that the Veldt carbine will now continue its life in the hands of our nations military historical curators. This piece is a fine representation of the second Boer war. It is planned to continue researching the rifle both by the AWM curators and myself.