African Carbines

Picked up my Underwood today from classicfirearms.com. My matching typewriter should be in early next week:) Here is the carbine as I took it out of the box. I'll tear it down and clean it up hopefully this weekend or next week, and post more pics.

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NPM stock, can just make out the stamp, and Trimble in the sling recess.

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Barrel stamp is faint, but can make out Underwood under a bright light, and an ordnance bomb stamped off-center.

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Faint arsenal refurbish stamp in front of the wrist? SAA?

I think it's neat! :cheers: SAA is for San Antonio Arsenal. The front sight could be marked near the muzzle. Does the Type 2 at the rear have any markings on it? - Bob

Attachment 121806

Nice high-wood I cut. Is it the correct stock?

...and the magazine is held nice and tight without any rattle, unlike my Midway NPM. I'm sure it will loosen a bit once I clean all the grime and sand laden grease out.

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Originally Posted by USGI

he front sight could be marked near the muzzle. Does the Type 2 at the rear have any markings on it?

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Attachment 121813
looks like R P.

Sure would like to see it when it's all cleaned up, bet it will look nice. :thup:

Congrats on the carbine.

Looking forward to seeing the after cleanup photos. :thup:

and a range report. :)

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDollar

and a range report.

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As of now, the action is pretty loose in the stock - with trigger pulled the whole thing slides and rotates slightly, and the movement can be felt in my trigger finger. I'm hoping it's just that things aren't tightened up, and that after cleaning properly fitting up all will be well.
Fingers crossed it gets cleaned up today. I was going to let my 12 year old boy have the honor of tearing it down by himself, which he promised he would as soon as I fix some of his old Atari cartridges.
This rifle serial number is in the second block of production, 2.601mil. Can't wait till Tuesday. My matching typewriter comes in. It has serial 1546673 which, according to https://typewriterdatabase.com/under...umber-database, puts it very very late in 1942 pruduction, just before they shut down to make rifles. Some typewriter eye candy from the auction. It was a steal at $75.
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Some keys are froze up, nothing a little kroil can't handle I think. By the looks of the sample page, the platen is likely still soft and just needs a new ribbon.

it's a parts rifle. Trigger housing is milled, stamped inland. Hammer is MC. The rest is crusted in dried grease and dirt. Everything soaking now. The little guy didn't bugger any screws, or slip the punch, not once :) Mighty proud of him.

Because of the evidence of light surface rust on some of the exterior, I drifted off the rear sight after a kroil soak over lunch. The front sight pin came right out after one smart wrap of a starter punch, and the front sight drifted off easily with a hardwood dowel and muzzle placed on an old hockey puck. The key took a soak, but came right out too. easy peasy!

Here is the bore...haven't touched it yet.
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Pics are of the crown, next 2 pics are middle third, then gas port obviously, the throat, and chamber.
here is a bore video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXWkQ86DUzE

Looks promising. Tool marks still visible on the lands and only light surface etching in some places, no real pitting. Time to scrub! Where did my helper go?

Doesn't need much of a scrub, shoot it little and then clean and see?

after a good scrub with jb-paste and kroil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpLPf66IlGE
some surface rust under the grime. I'll shoot it out before doing another deep scrub. Nice thing about being able to switch between side-view is things like copper and rust show super bright under the birds-eye view.
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First pic is the upper third of the barrel, towards the muzzle. Second one is halfway down.
Next, I'll soak the piston in kroil, gas port down and angled down at the muzzle to help flush any dust or jb-paste into the bore to be swabbed out later.

Degreasing now to remove all the old lubricants and grime, then drying, re-oiling, etc.
Here are all the marked parts of the trigger group.
Attachment 121840
Milled Trigger housing: inland
Sear: Rock-Ola
Trigger: TB
Safety lever: N
Hammer: MC
Mag release: IH, M on the side.

Bolt Body: H on the inboard lug, A just below it.
Extractor: W.I.
Firing Pin: N , is there an I or 1 next to it? or just a scratch?
Attachment 121841

Started re-oiling the stock. Wood was full of grease and oil. I scrubbed it lacquer thinner and steel wool to get it all out. After it dried, wiping the first coat of raw linseed oil on it showed what was left of the ordnance stamp just in front of NPM, and some letters someone scratched in the butt. I'll take some pictures once its dry.

Hey charlie, his bolt has an H marked left lug with an A underneath it and instead of reviving an old thread that is 13 pages back, I figured I would mention this to see if this bolt helps you along any further in the research you were doing on that thread. can't tell if his bolt has the x marking on it though.hth

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Originally Posted by jond41403

can't tell if his bolt has the x marking on it though.hth

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there is an x on top I think, just behind the face. Jon can you put a link to the thread you are talking about? I'm too lazy to search through all of Charlie's posts for it:)

Another topic - from your signature block, my dad was Chesty's driver at one point. He was issued dress blues sometime after returning from Vietnam and serving out the remainder of his enlistment just to drive Chesty back and forth to the hospital.

Unfortunately I'm horrible with links but the title of it is on page 13 called"questions about LFT lug markings on AOB bolts".hth, that's incredibly cool about your father being chesties driver! As you know old chesty was a legend in his own time. Imagine the stories they both could tell?

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=69323

this rather long list doesn't have my bolt
https://m1family.com/part-markings-c...first-t46.html but IDed just about everything else. stock should be dry tonight ill get some good pics.

found the X here
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/bolts.html

Stock cleaned up nice. With all the grime gone and re-oiled, the entire "Trimble TN" became visible in the sling recess. The crossed cannons are there, invisible before, and some kind of doodling was uncovered. What's it say?
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Good work on the stock clean up, look's like that one had a very hard life. :thup:
How's the clean up on the rest of the rifle going ?

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Originally Posted by lboos

How's the clean up on the rest of the rifle going ?

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Done and assembled, waiting on the stock to dry. Should be shooting next week.

Put everything together. looks real nice. I was hoping the slop in the action would go away with everything cleaned and tightened up, but no luck. With the band tightened up, the action easily slides forward 1-2 mm - the force of the bolt closing is enough to push the receiver off the plate by 1mm, and pulling the trigger shifts it back.
So, the wood in the barrel bed is tired, and the band is not capturing the barrel into the wood. Nothing a business-card shim can't fix for now. I'll tune it up so it at least doesn't rattle and shift in my hands when I pull the trigger, then I'll be shooting it. Suppose I could sell the stock for a pretty penny and put new wood on it, and fund a few more projects, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

I was hoping the slop in the action would go away with everything cleaned and tightened up, but no luck.

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My older brother who has owned and worked on guns for at least 50 years, bought his first (and only) M1 Carbine from the CMP about 15 years ago. He lives in CA and called me asking why the action was so loose in the stock. I was trying to tell him how to tighten up the trigger housing fit with the receiver, but he said, "No, it's the whole damn thing". His is an Inland and I asked him to check the fit of the receiver to the recoil plate. I ended up mailing him an SG marked Type 3 recoil plate and it solved his problem. He sent me the one that came in it, which is an Inland DI Type 2. With your action out of the stock, see how the recoil plate fits up to the tang of the receiver. It shouldn't go on without at least a slight bit of drag. You might be able to adjust the fit of the one you have and make it work. I broke one of mine, so you need to be pretty careful. I think user Matt_X posted about his method either here, or on the Carbine Club website recently. If your plate is a Type 2, I'd recommend getting a Type 3, though. - Bob

Check posts #15 & #18 in Matt_X's thread located here:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=75273&page=2

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Originally Posted by ssgross

the action easily slides forward 1-2 mm

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So, why not epoxy a sliver of shim stock to the front side of the receiver hook and it should eliminate the movement? No damage, can be reversed and should tighten it up. If 1mm isn't enough, use 2mm...so on.

I would put a thin wooden shim on the top of the recoil plate cutout and maybe a little more on the front face of the receiver cut out where the rear of the recoil plate rests. That will move the recoil plate up and tip it just a bit. That should tighten the fit of the receiver and lift the barrel just a bit. I've done that to a couple of stocks to restore proper receiver "tension".

Toying with the idea of some part swapping with my midway NPM. It has an underwood stamped trigger housing, with some feeding issues described in my other thread. So may get a 2fer...underwood gets a correct trigger housing, and NPM might not have feeding problems anymore. That NPM is pristine too, with a tighter stock. I've thought about getting new wood for it and stock furniture (saving the original of course for value), and tuning it to the best it can be.

Thanks guys. all good suggestions. I'll play with shimming just to get it to the range. Always best to shoot first before changing anything - especially permanent changes. From the sounds of your suggestions, I think I may have a collection of compounding issues...recoil plate and loose inletting at the front of the mag well.

I read this somewhere and it works: The best shim available is to make it from Starbucks stirring sticks. I used this wood on a loose Garand and it tightened it right up. It is probably made from some rain forest teak in Asia, regardless, it is kiln dried, straight grained, tough wood that glues and sands well.

This carbine has a type 2, unmarked recoil plate. With action out of the stock, I checked the fit on the tang and sure enough as expected there is substantial play.
I checked my midway NPM...it has a type 3 inland recoil plate that fits good, no play but not snug either. I tested it on the African carbine and...nice-n-snug fit. Presses on with a just a little thumb pressure. I added 4 layers of business card to the front of of the trigger gaurd, and everything slid in a little snug, but not tight. It's range ready now. If all goes well, I'll slather some grease on my business card spacer. Posterity can read my name on it.
So, that type 2 plate was loose on the NPM as well. I pressed it slowly in my vice between aluminum blocks to tighten it up, checking progress with a micrometer. After 3 iterations of of this, I had about half the slop out of it, but was still pretty loose. As I pressed it once more...you guessed it - snap. It was just too loose to correct.
Type 3 recoil plate is on the way to make all well.

I'll switch over to getting the matching 1942 underwood typewriter working again. Is anyone interested in seeing that? I think I have its problems figured out. It freezes up and won't advance after 3-5 key presses.

I picked up a Standard Products from Classic a couple of weeks ago. The barrel looks to be in similar condition. How would you rate your barrel as far as round count goes? Is it a little or a lot?

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Originally Posted by arcamm

How would you rate your barrel

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Little? the tool marks and drilling chatter are still pretty pronounced, and there was no copper in any of it. Contrast with my Italian carbine from Midway this year, https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post501062
I think that one was shot more. However the finish on the barrel of this Classic is maybe 20%, and the midway one is near 100%.
I've seen similar on my several CMP garlands. Sometimes the field grade has a much better barrel that's been shot less than the service grade, just less original finish left.
Maybe they super cleaned bores in Ethiopia after firing? doubtful. or maybe they did at the govt. refurb at SAA? If so, then the finish wear happened before it was left in a lend/lease crate and forgotten about.

I need to pick up a good muzzle wear gauge. Been on my list of a while. That will give you (us) the best idea of how much these were used.

I'm not an expert on carbine barrels and I don't mean to hijack your thread, but when I bought mine, I wasn't expecting anything but heavily used rifle. When I looked down the bore, I first thought it was worn smooth, but after I ran some patches down the barrel and removed about a half pound of Ethiopian topsoil, It looked much better. In fact, like yours. I posted on another forum and was told that it didn't look like it was fired much (if at all). I don't have an erosion gauge either, but mine will take a .300 pin gauge and will only take about 3/4" of a .301. It won't take .302 at all. Maybe they just set the carbines to Ethiopia and no ammo. My stock looks like it was used more as a club!

not hijacked at all. Did yours have a mismatched stock too? Barrel and receiver are about all the underwood I got.

Mine has a M2 stock with both pieces stamped "IO". No cartouche, a "P" stamped on the hand grip and a "MR" refurb stamp on the left side. It looks like it was cleaned by beating it on a sharp rock. No cracks that I've found so far.

I think that a lot of this stuff has to do with war time production. They were slamming these things out maybe 1,000 a day in some instances. Barrels were the big hang up. Inland was asking Ordnance if it was OK to use barrels that weren't perfect and they said "Yes". My Inland is an almost new example 8/44 barrel. It looks like a Colt 45 barrel, very shallow rifling. Looks like it was shot a lot and it was shot very little. NPM was using anything they could get until IBM sent them a bunch of really nice barrels in spring of 44.

If you read "The River and the Gauntlet" by SLA Marshall at the end he spends some time with Ethiopian soldiers and they were probably the best, most well trained and effective troops in Korea. It goes without saying that they probably had excellent rifle care, Marine Corp quality rifle care. I had a friend who was stationed in Ethiopia for several years in the Army. He told me that if you deserted from their army, they cut one of your legs off. Ethiopian air marshals would respond to hijackers by gathering towels and slitting the throats of the terrorists right on the airplane. They didn't have any hijacked airliners after that. Historically: Read "The Blue Nile" by Alan Moorehead, a fabulous read.

I would agree about fast production and the reduction of quality control. Defiantly as far as ascetics go. My barrel is an Underwood stamped 3-44. It looks like it was only rough cut and never finished. Inside and out.
As long as it goes bang when you pull the trigger. The GI that steps around a corner and is standing face to face with an enemy isn't too concerned with the fact that is rifle might be over 2 MOA.

Just received a Winchester from Classic that has a ventilated stock. Winchester barrel and receiver are in great shape. Bore is what i would call excellent condition? Stock would make great fire wood. Soaked in oil and beaten to death. Over all very happy.

Congrat. Just placed my order last week. Can't wait to lay my hands on it

I finally got this underwood to the range tonight since I had my little brass chaser with me. My 11yr old daughter shot it while I worked up a ladder test on another build.
She shot the circled group at 25yds in the target below towards the end of the evening - after she already had put a box of 50rds through it. Wanting to see how it fared at 100yds I shot the remaining holes at that distance. The tight group bottom right shows the rifle's consistency - the same 2 minutes right that my daughter saw in her 25yd group.
Attachment 130099

Very impressed with how this little bundle of joy performed (and the carbine too! ;))
While Shots 2/3/4 exceeded my wildest expectations, the flyers in 5/6/7 were entirely my fault.
The ejection pattern is dead consistent at a straight 5 o'clock. My daughter shoots righty and I easily caught each case in my hat without hardly moving it. I shoot lefty which means every shot blasted me in the forehead. Shot 1 was the first round I put through it. Shots 2/3/4 I had the brim of my hat low enough to not notice. Grinning with pleasure on shot 3 hoping it wasn't luck, I took a step back and adjusted my head gear. POW! right in the forehead. I kept adjusting my cheek weld lower on the remaining shots to try and duck the brass. The last round was flung a high 5 o'clock, and landed flat against my neck. It was hot enough to melt flesh and stick rather than bounce off. So I went home with a divot just above my shoulders - a perfect impression of 30 US carbine right down to extractor groove of the case and the increased thermal mass of the case head vs. the case neck.

So I gave up and shot the carbine righty the rest of the night. I sprayed the bull, but nothing to write home about. Shooting righty might just be the best solution, but I hate to think so. Perhaps the extractor or extractor spring is worn/too stiff, and replacing it will change the pattern? I can trim a coil or 2 off the extractor spring - that for certain should have some effect. I'll tear the bolt down next, take pictures, and report back before doing anything irreversible.

Are you meaning ejector instead of extractor? I shoot right handed, but remember having one of my carbines that threw the empties straight into my forehead. Guys here told me what to do and it worked - only problem is I can't remember what it was, right now. Hope you bought that PPU when it was still cheap! - Bob

Edit: I searched on "forehead" and found this old thread and my post (#13) on page 2. It was an Inland that I still have, so will look to see if I can tell which bolt parts I changed.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38415&page=2

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Originally Posted by USGI

Are you meaning ejector instead of extractor

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yes. I meant "Perhaps the extractor or ejector spring". I haven't played with either on a carbine. I know there is the added dynamic of the slide handle geometry, but otherwise the principles of ejection are analogous to most anything else mechanics-wise. 1911's I've tuned the ejection on plenty. Changing the ejection pattern is combination of the geometry of extractor (how tightly it holds on to the case) and the force at which it strikes the ejector stud (the balancing the buffer spring and recoil forces on a 1911) - or analogously the ejector spring force on the carbine.

...reading your thread now.

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by ssgross

...reading your thread now.

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LOL...if only carbine brass were as cheap today! I guard mine like gold, and I certainly never go M1 carbine shooting without a kiddo or three to take turns scrambling for it as it falls. I scored a case of PPU 110gr. a couple years ago at a good price. Berry's is starting make/have in stock their 30cal plated round nose again - so I'm all set but for large quantities of brass.

Might want to see if you have the latest style Ejector in the bolt.
But before changing anything read on:

One of my shooters ejects straight back looking for my forehead, as it gums up it looks for my neck. I Can't recall which carbine that one is but it's marked on one of the carbine range cases. While trying to duck brass one day another ole timer getting a kick out of watching me squirm asked if I had a mosquito head net. I smiled and said say no more. It was a Light Bulb moment :rolleyes: Now also written on that range case is Mosquito head net. I probably had half a dozen tucked away in the boats and tackle boxes for our notorious black flies, no see ums and deer flies. Honestly they work great to deflect killer brass. Just never gave one a thought for use at the range instead of playing rope a dope.

Thx for sharing your Great day.... Valentines.. and to have the Daughter out there. Makes memories, time goes by too fast. Plus You Can't beat young eyes looking for treasured brass. Maybe some pictures of her shooting next time? You know, before she's borrowing the keys for the car ;)

Cheers :beerchug:


Picture from Jim Mock's collection. 4 style Ejector tips. L-R Early to Newest

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Originally Posted by painter777

Might want to see if you have the latest style Ejector in the bolt.

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Attachment 130133
I know for a fact the ejector spring, plunger, and recess in the bolt are cleaned and oiled to spec as part of my own process. It could be the spring though - I've seen many an garand's and AR's that are slightly kinked, which could cause some unwanted friction. I'll start there. replace the spring, more closely inspect the geometry of the extractor for burrs or wear, and try again.

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Originally Posted by painter777

Thx for sharing your Great day.... Valentines.. and to have the Daughter out there. Makes memories, time goes by too fast. Plus You Can't beat young eyes looking for treasured brass. Maybe some pictures of her shooting next time? You know, before she's borrowing the keys for the car

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I'm very proud of my little girl. She has been through a lot this last year, and came out on top. Over the 2021-2022 holidays, she got very sick. Just after Christmas, after she had lost over 30lbs in 2 days, we landed in the E.R., and spent the next 2 weeks in the ICU - Type 1 diabetes at 10yrs old. She aged a decade in those 2 weeks. While saddening that this disease robbed her of so many things, like a carefree childhood they all deserve at that young age, she has grown this year into a more responsible little adult than many of my college students. We try to keep our kids' internet presence null until they are old enough to choose what to share for themselves (when they move out ;)), but sometimes I just can't help shouting to the world how proud I am! Thanks for the opportunity.

looks like I already have the late type ejector with conical bevel all around. I have a couple more springs/ejectors on the way to play with.

Changing to a late op-slide (angled deflector lug) will help with the direction of ejected casings. Can't tell by your picture if you have an early or late.

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Type 1 diabetes at 10yrs old. She aged a decade in those 2 weeks. While saddening that this disease robbed her of so many things, like a carefree childhood they all deserve at that young age

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I have a 10-year-old grandson who has also been robbed of his childhood by T1D, diagnosed 3 years ago after an observant school teacher noticed that he was needing to pee way too much. Definitely makes them grow up way too fast!

Yep, looks like the late style. When magnified up you see a lot of things that may not be anything. Looking at your tip looks (?) like some residue around the top side... per the pic orientation. Does it press in ok?
Sometimes a gummy chamber will hold just enough to affect ejection angle.....
And sometimes they run completely different the next time out.

I've got to the point where as long as their running and extracting I'm happy. But still keep my Mosquito head net handy. If it's a carbine benched ejecting out at 3'0 clock I can catch most brass with that head net propped to the side.

Keep us posted how she runs.

Bless your Daughter :thup:

Strength of the load also affects ejection placement. Depending on what load I shoot (as in both projectile profile and powder charge),strong stuff over my head and right shoulder at 5 o-clock. Weaker loads around 2 and 3 off to the right.

I looked and a new ejector (with spring) was what it took to fix my Inland - wow that was 14 years ago! Mine were both the one in the 3rd picture Charlie shows. I installed a new spring on a carbine ejector recently and it was not easy !!. If you put in the spring only, make sure it's a genuine USGI spring. Let us know if you figure out an easy way! Younger hands ought to help a bit. More later .... - Bob

Here's the slide handle. I'll be leaving it alone and tweaking all else first. I don't think the brass is hitting the handle at all. The ejector moves freely when depressed. My other carbine (NPM) has the 45 degree bevel type ejector. Comparing the two, the underwood feels a bit grittier when depressed. Could be a kinked spring, or some gunk or grit I missed when I put it back together. I wish I could find some slow-mo footage of carbine ejection. There is a really nice high-speed footage of a garand on this forum (and YouTube).
I don't have any control over the loads...yet ;)
Attachment 130149

The casings would not hit the slide handle, they do hit the slide deflector lug, you have an early slide.
Page down on the link below to "Improving Ejection"
The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines - Slides

There is a high speed video of an M1 carbine firing in super slow motion on the CCC forum that was put out by Mark Serbu. I think Wayne has nailed it with you having the early slide. Switching to a later slide should help the deflection angle.hth

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Originally Posted by jond41403

There is a high speed video of an M1 carbine firing in super slow motion

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After adding some search parameters from your post, I found some videos. Here they are for the convenience of posterity...
I think this is what you referenced
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clfW4cZg1O0

I also found a second video...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcGUJPs0t_U

EDIT: Very interesting. In Mark's video, at ~1:21.5 (I slowed the speed down to 0.25x so you can see each frame), the ejection begins with the mouth being directed to the right, bringing it in to contact with the slide. The case at ~1:34.5 start off with the mouth pointing more vertical this time.
I would think the ejector geometry and load dictates this initial direction. Of course the slide geometry dictates the final push/bounce. Or more particular, how the forward component of the ejection pattern. Perhaps I can keep my slide, and use a different ejector to put the brass in better contact with the slide I have. The PPU loads from what I've read are pretty good in comparison to milsurp ammo.
For what it's worth, my NPM has the same style slide as this underwood does, but has the 45deg. bevel ejector. It has never in ~300rds thrown brass in my face. It had a different problem...magazine causing failure to feed (cured in another thread by using the later style recoil plate. now all my mags work. this was cheaper than buying different mags.)

I'm missing something here, can't see the vids you posted?

they show up for me. here are hard links.
Link1=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clfW4cZg1O0
Link2=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcGUJPs0t_U

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssgross

For what it's worth, my NPM has the same style slide as this underwood does, but has the 45deg. bevel ejector. It has never in ~300rds thrown brass in my face. It had a different problem...magazine causing failure to feed (cured in another thread by using the later style recoil plate. now all my mags work. this was cheaper than buying different mags.)

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Swap those ejector assemblies and see what happens. I have carbines with Type 2, 3, and 5 slides - they all shoot fine and with good ejection, even those with the earlier slides. I like to keep those slides on the guns that came with them, as they can (and do) work fine. I would try swapping ejectors first. If you can check (or know) the headspace on those two, you could save some effort by just swapping the complete bolts. It can be done without removing the action from the stock, but I don't really recommend it.

RE: Type 1 Diabetes. One of my daughters was diagnosed (correctly) by her mother at the age of 2. She's done very well with controlling her "levels" and now has had the disease more than 50 years. Our goal for her from the beginning was to prevent the future onset of diabetic related complications and she has done very well at that.

I'm really proud of her and her own family, and also grateful that having two diabetics in our household while she was growing up, kept the whole family on a healthier diet and meal schedule. Here's a picture of her out shooting 22's with me when she was about nine. She and her older sister are both good shots, like to fish, and can still ride ATV's like they could when they were teenagers. - Bob

Attachment 130153

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Originally Posted by ssgross

here are hard links.

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First one was Styx - Too Much Time On My Hands... Anyway, I get it. It must just be me.

Jim,
I can't see Vids in reply 52, but see the hard links in #54.
I'll post the 1st one here to save time.
The 2nd one is out of focus and short of detail.

To USGI Bob, Is that my truck above? :rolleyes:

Mark Serbu, M1 Carbine High Speed Video

M1 Carbine High Speed Video - YouTube

Thanks Charlie! To save confusion I'm really going to have to have the wife show me how to post links into this forum. I can post links to email and in private messages but this forum is never one of the options I see to post it in. I hate being computer ignorant haha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

To USGI Bob, Is that my truck above?

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I picked that picture just to see if you'd notice it! Now, let's see if you can identify the gun - you already know it's a 22 :thup: - Bob

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Originally Posted by jond41403

I can post links to email and in private messages but this forum is never one of the options I see to post it in.

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Jon, if you can see the icon on your phone with the red arrow pointing to it - it will open up a space for you to insert your link. - Bob

Attachment 130176

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

with the red arrow pointing to it

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I discovered not all links post the same. Whilst trying to accommodate Jim with normal links instead of embedded video, I used the button your red arrow points to, only to find the YouTube links converted automagically to embedded video again, which is why I edited and just pasted plain text.

...new ejector pin and spring came in the mail yesterday. this one is the 45deg. bevel. I have another on its way that is the early 3-bevel type. I'm betting that some combination of new spring and/or different ejector will work sufficiently. I did not replace any of the springs when I got it, so the slide return spring is another cheap variable I can play with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssgross

I discovered not all links post the same. Whilst trying to accommodate Jim with normal links instead of embedded video, I used the button your red arrow points to, only to find the YouTube links converted automagically to embedded video again, which is why I edited and just pasted plain text.

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Possibly it does that with a phone, but works fine for me using a PC. I thought it might be of help for Jon to give it a try with his. Here's the links to those videos I came up with using a PC. For the links that I post, I always use the "preview post" option to make sure they work (at least for me) before submitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clfW4cZg1O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcGUJPs0t_U

Do what you feel like with those springs, but although "knock-off" springs may work, the genuine USGI recoil springs are not cheap - they're also hard to find, even harder to correctly identify. The overall length, coil count, and the appearance of the end coils are a good place to start. Hope you get that one going again soon! I think the race has already started. - Bob

EDIT: Well, you were right - it did the same thing for me this time! :dunno:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

Now, let's see if you can identify the gun

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I'll take a guess...... A 1930-40s Marlin/Sears Ranger Model Maybe a 103-8 ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

Possibly it does that with a phone

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I'm on a pc.

NOS ejector and spring came in. After more careful examination both ejectors are the 3rd type in the photo of post #42 - with a 45deg. bevel. However, as you can see, the new ejector spring is a bit longer, about 2 coils. The new one is installed, and both kids are now jonesin' for some carbine time this week.
Attachment 130190Attachment 130191

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssgross

some carbine time this week

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Sounds nice, but we're under another Winter Ice Storm Warning

I've always looked at the ejector as part of a system. I've had cases hitting me in the forehead and some flying right. I don't think that the type of ejector will make a major change in the results without other things. An extractor will effect the ejection, and I think that the main recoil spring has a lot to do with it too. I had one that was having all kinds of feeding extraction and ejection problems all of which went away with a new GI operating spring. I've changed ejectors to all three types that did absolutely nothing. Some just work. Making sure that the holes in the bolt are completely clean and that both bolt springs are in good shape helps. a lot as does making sure the weapon is lubricated. The oiling by manual standards is not sufficient in my opinion. That main slide spring does a lot more than just slam the bolt closed and as I noted, sometimes it cures all of the issues.

Quite right, the correct ejector may make all the difference, but in firearm with so many different components it is wise to change one thing at a time until you find the solution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

I'll take a guess...... A 1930-40s Marlin/Sears Ranger Model Maybe a 103-8 ??

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:nono:

Charlie, I guess we're both doing some "hi-jacking" of the OP's thread here, but the 22 is a (Western Auto) Revelation Model 100. The "Blue Book" says that's a Mossberg 321, but some on the "net" say it's closer to a 320. My oldest brother bought it for me 2 or 3 years after he joined the Army - think it was about 1961. He removed the part that engaged the safety every time you cocked the gun before he gave it to me, since he knew I didn't need it - all of us had been shooting Dad's single shot 22 (his Missouri squirrel gun) for several years by that time. Dad's single shot was also a "store brand" gun. I think it said, "White's Hardware Company - Kansas City Mo." on the barrel. I still have the original papers for the Revelation 100, so will add images below. Only complaint I ever had on it is the "stamped" bolt handle - looks cheap, but works just fine!

Winter weather came back here today, too - but not as bad as you're probably having. Portland got hit pretty hard today, though - traffic was nearly at a standstill most of the afternoon and evening. - Bob

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

I guess we're both doing some "hi-jacking" of the OP's thread here

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Take it away! I'll chime back in when I have something to update, or if you move on to something that moves me. It's all interesting.
Here you go https://www.gunbroker.com/item/971751610 quite the steal if you can find a receiver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

but we're under another Winter Ice Storm Warning

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Well, try the transition zone this week. 30's yesterday, getting up to 80 today, snow projected sometime over the weekend.

This is all pretty normal weather for the Lake Erie snowbelt. Except for one thing....We've gotten less snow than a normal year. 60s one day and teens the next. Rain changing to ice then snow with high winds....If you don't like the weather in Northeast Ohio, just wait a minute. It will change. You guys get no sympathy from me!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssgross

Take it away! I'll chime back in when I have something to update, or if you move on to something that moves me. It's all interesting.
Here you go https://www.gunbroker.com/item/971751610 quite the steal if you can find a receiver.

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That's cool, Thanks! :thup: That GB link even shows pics of the bolt (lever) handle. Probably one off a Mossberg bolt would make a nice upgrade for me. Now I'll have to check Numrich to see if they have one! It's cold here, too. Portland just had the second highest snowfall on record - the high was set 80 years ago. They'll likely get coverage on national news tonight. - Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimb16

This is all pretty normal weather for the Lake Erie snowbelt.

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That's where I grew up, on the other side of the lake. I'm still used to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

Probably one off a Mossberg bolt

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GI Bob, Probably same thing. Revelation/Western Auto / Mossberg parts are identical, see attachments I found.
* Are your sights like the Model 320K ?

BAR, Then you must know Point Pelee, I've boated out there. Having to scrounge gas from Kingsville both to and from Michigan's Breast Bay. Thru the warm water discharge of the Enrico Nuclear Power Plant ! Took quite the beating on that lake multiple times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Point Pelee

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About seven miles to the south from my home. Our own Brian Dick here is also from that area.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Took quite the beating on that lake multiple times.

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Many, many have been lost to those waters.

I grew up on the west shore near the Huron river mouth, but further inland. Still considered a 'Downriver Rat'. Last fished Erie 2 years ago was surprised how clear the water was thx to the Zebras, but later the algae took hold by late summer. I have some pricey ship wreck maps of all the great lakes. Interesting floating over or sitting on a point looking over a spot where others were lost. Some list the cargo, like 1 in lake michigan that went down with a load of new model T's bound for Wisconsin. Another with the payroll in gold for a lumber/rail company in upper green bay. A lot of history in the depths.

GI Bob, A Model 320B with the rear hooded sight removed: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/971916371

### SOLD $106.00 ###

Back on topic when SS gets his part installed :dancingbanana:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

GI Bob, Probably same thing. Revelation/Western Auto / Mossberg parts are identical, see attachments I found.
* Are your sights like the Model 320K ?

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No, that 320K has the same "elevator slide" but the rest of the rear sight parts are different. My sight is shown in post #69. The bolt for the Model 320 looks the same, but the bolt handle (lever) - even though similar, might have a different angle or bend on it. I just figured that the Mossberg model would have a "fancier" bolt lever. Your next assignment is to find a parts breakdown for a Model 321 - that's the one the Bluebook lists as being the same. :) - Bob

B or K ?

Jeez, I didn't know you had written the post with the GB link when I made my last post, so was editing it (for about 1/2 an hour) - and then the phone rang! Somehow, the edit was GONE when I came back to the computer.

The bolt lever on the GB gun has a dark "fancy" finish along with special sights, sling swivels, etc. My bolt lever is completely unfinished unless it's galvanized - may have to pull it out and take a picture. It was the only gun I ever owned until the age of about 42. We took it along (under the seat) on every wood hauling trip in that old pickup during the 70's and early 80's.

The stock is scratched up a bit, but otherwise looks nearly like a new gun. I'll take a look to see if my Blue Book shows anything other than mine being the same as a Model 321 (with no letters) but don't think it did. If any of them did have a "fancy" bolt lever, maybe the one in your GB link is an example of that?

I should be doing something on my "To Do" list, but get involved in researching trivial "stuff" almost everyday now, it seems! I have an idea for an early Inland comparison thread (with pictures) that I may start soon. If I do that, I may just sit back and see if anyone gets interested and not get too involved myself. - Bob

Model-Intro-Discontinued
320B 1960 1966 .22 bolt action single shot target sights, swivels, hammerless design improved firing pin
320BA 1966-1967 same as 320B, change from S137 to S142
rear dovetail sight
320BB 1968-1971 same as 320BA, change in safety assy
320K 1958-1962 .22 single shot bolt action economy sights
320KA 1962-1966 same as 320K improved firing pin
320TR 1961-1962 Targo version of 320K with smooth bore and
rifled tube inserts for 22 cal shot and LR
321B 1971-1974 .22 single shot target sights replaced 320BB
321K 1971-1980 .22 single shot open sights

See page 2:
Chronology of Mossberg Firearms 1919-2019
https://www.mossbergcollectors.org/100-years.pdf

GI Bob, Look again at the parts schematic I posted, that's exactly the same as your Western Auto but has Mossberg at the top. Look at the detail on the bolt.

****GB gun IS a Model 320B with the Rear Peep missing. Why it has the hooded front sight and swivels

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

I should be doing something on my "To Do" list, but get involved in researching trivial "stuff" almost everyday now, it seems!

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but oh, isn't that part of the fun!

flurries sometime Sunday evening...but the daffodils all popped yesterday when we peaked at 82F in the late afternoon! Hopefully there is no hard frost with the flurries. I'm half tempted to go out and cut them all and surprise the Mrs. with a huge bouquet lest they be ruined with a hard frost on Monday morning. will check the weather as we get closer. Hopefully I'll get a range evening next week too. The bigger the bouquet, the longer I can likely shoot :)

My Dafodills have also popped up. Amazing flowers that women like as much as roses. I've never planted any, they are all just volunteers. The Robins are back too. They used to come every year and eat the Pyracantha and if the berries had been on the plant for a long time, the Robins would get all screwed up like they were drunk. After the war I lived in the back house of a rich Italian man. His wife needed birds to put into her raviolis along with brains and all manner of stuff. I'd plug a half dozen fat Robins with the pellet rifle and she was a happy lady. I had a Sharpshrike that came to my persimmon tree every year and met his wife. They'd nest and have the kids and split. Same bird same tree for about 3 years then never again. That male fought battles with anything that came near the tree. My Persimmon tree normally has maybe 50 nice pieces of fruit. I always left them for the birds. They'd clean them out by March. This year I had one persimmon. We have had the first normal winter rain in about 4 years and the citizens are just going nuts. There are 90% of these Bozos that think that if they drive a Prius and stop mowing the lawn with a gas mower that they will save the planet. I am not joking. It is Egos and Virtue signaling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaveHH

His wife needed birds to put into her raviolis along with brains and all manner of stuff.

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WTF???:eek:

Getting off topic can be interesting, We just had 12 Deer in the backyard this evening that attacked my Wife's Hostas that had just broke up thru the sunshine today that worked on melting the latest ice storm, I'd told the wife about it earlier today while spreading some corn and filling the bird feeders. Around 7pm from my bedroom window I watch one big Doe nose bop a bird feeder like a boxer would slow hit a speed bag until all the feed is knocked out then eats it from the pile on the ground. All the while while it's 'Bobbing' it's beady eyes are trained on me while I look on. Same Deer every night. Our state bird is the Robin which you never see during the winter months has been under attack to be replaced by another that's seen more often thru winter. Usually you write on the calendar the 1st sighting which in my area tends to be more like late March or mid April if we're lucky. Dave's Post had me looking at the calendar because this year I spotted my 1st just off the back patio on Feb 7th.....and had 2 witnesses. Easily a new record, days later at -20+ wind chill I was hoping it survived.

GI Bob,
Does your .22 have a Serial number?
Thinking you might be able to use that Mossberg PDF file for start/discontinue dates to narrow down your model. Features are going to determine your 'Letter Prefix'.
Couple more links you can study. On this 1st one, Note the models the Bolt Lever fits from Numrich (Part 19) Bolt Lever, New Factory Original for sale for Mossberg 320BA, 320B, 320K, 320KA, 320TR, 321B, 321K firearm

Mossberg 320B, 320BA, 320K, 320KA, 320TR, 321B, 321K Schematic W/ Parts List: Mossberg 321K Parts | Numrich Gun Parts

Western Auto Revelation Makers Chart
Western Auto - Revelation Firearms

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Getting off topic can be interesting

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keep it going I say. I'll bring us back eventually. I have some spare spring sets too. Plenty of combinations to play with.
That GB listing had no receiver - otherwise everything looked salvagable. And it got me digging about something I never knew before, which is always fun.

Robins in ravioli? wouldn't be too weird. there is place called Cafe montmarte in Reston, which specializes in authentic Viet-french cuisine, that is to say French food influenced by the pre-war colonial period in Vietnam, kind of like you brit's and the curries that taste nothing like India anymore. Anyhow, pigeon is on the menu regularly in one form or another.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssgross

keep it going I say. I'll bring us back eventually.

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And we'll happily step back and focus back in. :thup:
But in the mean time Dave's post reminded me of a customers request once they realized we were fishermen to bring them all the fish heads we could bring them for their Fish Head soup.
Friendly professional asian couple. After our annual fishing trip we filled their freezer. They were telling us with their accents: No more, No more :lol:

1 more link GI Bob, Clones being Revelation 100 and 100A: Differences between Mossberg 321 vs 321A (And Clones) | Rimfire Central Firearm Forum

Need any more than what I've collected I'll buy the D@mn Rifle and the Truck :bash::bash:

Charlie, I can't keep up with you guys! Actually, Iv'e been trying to explain that I've known since I got that gun that it's a "store brand" - just forgot whether my brother told me Marlin or Mossberg. I had the info along with the rear sight differences, etc. all spelled out in that post that disappeared.

It's almost bedtime now that I've finally got back to the forum and found I'm late by a couple of pages. I took some pictures of the gun this afternoon but they're still on the camera and don't know if any of them turned out. Had planned to be back with details before this, but the wife's been on the computer I need most of the time since supper. I'll get back to it sometime tomorrow after I look at all those links!

Next time I'll think twice before giving you an assignment! According to the Blue Book of Gun Values, the Mossberg model that my gun is - was made between 1960 and 1980. It's grouped in with Models 320K and 320K-A -"similar to Model 320B with open sights, no swivels, later models marked 321, 321K." If I don't get back on tomorrow, it will probably be after the race on Sunday. Never know now who's likely to win until the last couple laps though!

If you get a chance, take a look at WAC's new batch of stocks. - Bob

GI BOB, Wait........ Whens the last time you shot it ? :confused:
Think I'll just wait on SS and see how his new part works. I'm not getting any younger.

Race? Yeah wait 3 hrs to see who runs out of gas or who is ruled ahead when the caution flag waves :surrender::surrender:

WAC? Yes I got the email, most I looked at were 'Just Sold'. But didn't look at all, I was tired from doing your assignment.
I should be selling off a dozen or two. But it's hard to sell once you have em.

How about waiting 'til we get back from picking up an RX and going to McD's? Think I better come up with a grade for your last assignment - need to look again at what you gave me on removing the rack numbers on that WAC stock a few years back!

I downloaded that Mossberg 100 year PDF and found out the Blue Book is wrong for my Model 100. It's the 320K not the 321. Also found that my Mom's old .410 was made between '52 and '54 - think you might have helped out on that one once, too. It was stamped 183D-B, and had both chokes and the wrench for them - sold it several years ago for around $125. I know, should have kept it. :slap: - Bob

Shot it last? Probably when that pictures was taken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Are your sights like the Model 320K ?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

320K 1958-1962 .22 single shot bolt action economy sights

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Per GI Bob: "It's the 320K"

Part of why I noted there were no factory swivels.


You know I've never sold a gun. Traded some and gave a few away. Lost a few my brother never returned that he used or loaned to cousins I never got back. I came oh so close to buying that one on GB yesterday but I'm sorta over stocked on .22's. I was 5 for 5 on Woodchucks last year but for 1 needed a 2nd shot. 1st shot slid across his breast plate. Better call it 6 for 5.

Don't drive my truck on salted roads :nono:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Originally Posted by painter777
Are your sights like the Model 320K ?

Originally Posted by painter777
320K 1958-1962 .22 single shot bolt action economy sights

Per GI Bob: "It's the 320K"

Part of why I noted there were no factory swivels.

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Charlie: Hope you're not staying up past your bedtime waiting for me to post. We got home about 3-1/2 hours ago, I got the pictures sorted out and then started looking in old 2011 threads for the grade you gave me on removing the rack numbers off the grip of that SA stock from WAC.

I never did find it, but saw so many interesting threads (many still with pics) that I've spent all evening checking them out - I saw the names of a lot "our guys" that haven't posted in a few years - hope that most of them are still doing OK. Best I can remember, you gave me a grade of B+. Maybe you can find that old post? Whatever grade it was, you deserve at least a "E" for effort!

Like I said earlier, I just downloaded and found my model in that Mossberg PDF today. Otherwise, I had no idea what a 320K was up until now. I only checked your Numrich link a few moments ago, but the bolt shown there is different than mine - likely from an older gun? Mine doesn't have swivels, but if I said something about them it was likely a comment about that one (For Sale) that had the hooded front sight, swivels, etc. My understanding is that the more expensive models were available with factory swivels - believe I saw that shown in the PDF, also.

I'd better get those pictures added so you can see what the .22 looks like. You can't have the Ford, but I've been wondering what you thought of the recent NASCAR ad that showed a new Mustang "Cup Car" (at speed) on the beach at Daytona with the outer envelope flying off - then a '56 Ford sedan (Fireball Roberts) emerges from it and continues the pace. The rest of the video is pretty cool, too. I always wanted a '56, but the closest I ever came was building a model of one when I was kid! Have fun watching the race tomorrow! - Bob

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I'm the same Charlie, I've never sold a gun either. Don't know why but after I bring them home, we start to think of them as kind of like family in a weird way haha. Kind of like a pet, not long before they're a part of the family and are thought of as such . Not to mention all the fun family memories being made with them. I have traded a few and have regretted it ever since so I don't tend to trade anything either anymore haha. I've liked the things I've traded for in the past but I still end up missing the thing I traded. I guess I've never been in it to make money, only to spend it haha

I have sold and traded too many guns to count, I have many regrets! The one trade that still keeps me up at night is when I traded away an original WRA model 12 trench gun, should have known better when I walked into the shop and the owner said "look around and pick something you're interested in." I ended up with a Ruger #1 in 7x57, which I do love and has become my favorite deer rifle, but damn I wish I had the M12 trench gun back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

Mine doesn't have swivels,

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You never said anything about yours having swivels. With your plain set of sights and stock having no cheek rest or swivels it matches the Mossberg 320K. Made in the time frame your brother gave it to you: 1958-1962. The last 'New' .22 I bought was made almost 3 years before I picked it up from a LGS.

Look at your 320K on the attached chart. Then compare the attached parts lists, compare your Western Auto to the Mossberg list... Same thing, other than Western Auto address on the bottom.

I think of the older house guns or store guns made by the big manufacturers as being basically the same inside but offering cheaper or less expensive accessories like stock wood, sights, grips, trigger guards etc. This way the Prime maker keeps their advantage on the market having the better options....... like a FANCIER BOLT LEVER among other things.

These Primes sold a lot of 'Clone Named Guns' thru Hardware stores, Sears, Montgomery Wards, Woolworth, J.C. Penny, hell even Abercrombie and Fitch.... etc.

Hey Charlie, you probably think I'm as "stubborn headed" as you - That could be! The day you posted "your" version of the parts list, I compared to see what was the same and what wasn't. I even made a list of p/n's, prices, etc. I thought about posting them but threw out the list, since I figured you saw it was from a later time and covered more than one model. Also, thought you were saying Mossberg didn't make any .22's with swivels. Guess you were just telling me that mine didn't have them?

Your list shows parts for .22's not in production yet when mine was built. Some of the later replacements would likely fit, but I can see differences in the barrel, rear sight parts, and firing pin - to a name a few.

That Western Auto (mailing) address looks like it was likely at Mossberg. The Western Auto store in our town was in a building that Dad said was previously a Gambles store - not sure now if those companies were related or not? I was too young to remember the Gambles. I still have a set of Wizard open-end wrenches from Western Auto - and a similar set that stack together in a clip with a set screw to hold them in place.

I may have been born in the dark, but it wasn't last night! :lol: - Bob

Wrenches reminded me of: True Value which used to be called Cotter & Company. I have a set of combo- box/open end that sound similar to yours that were my Fathers marked C & Co.
Add Kmart, Gamble-Skogmo and a store chain in Michigan called Rinks Bargain City to the list that sold Clones or Store brand guns.

I found this (below) last night that I copied/pasted in to my Email drafts to save, but didn't save the link I found it in. It was pretty late.

The “store brand” guns from Western Auto were labeled with the brand name “Revelation,” and were made by Savage, Marlin, and Mossberg. They were the most basic, no frills models with plain birch or walnut stocks, but the finishes were great, the features worked, and the guns were reliable.

I had a pretty good list going years ago on Stores models I have and who the Prime maker was. But have no idea what ever happen to it. I know for sure the Sears Ted Williams 73 rifle I have here is a Winchester New Model 70 bolt gun with different markings. IIRC about 1963 to 65 production and fired less than 40 times.

How about Coast-to-Coast? We had them here for awhile and the one in our town switched to a Do-it-Center or Do-it-Best (all gone now). I can't remember if they had guns or not. I just have one other '22 rifle, a 10-22. Still have a bunch of .22 handguns, though - mostly Rugers. - Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by USGI

How about Coast-to-Coast?

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I just found a little bit about them on a reddit forum from 2012, but I don't know how accurate the info is:

"Coast to Coast" is a series of hardware stores founded in 1928. Like many such stores, they sold guns from popular manufacturers stamped as "house brand" guns. Coast to Coast is now defunct, as in 1997 the company was merged into the TruServ Corporation, now know as True Value.

This morning I found a 'Store Brand Cross Over List' on the NRA Museum site. Don't panic when you see the Western Auto 100 listed as Mossberg Model 321...... Or panic I don't care :runaway:

If anyone has a number of Store Brands this list would be worth printing off or adding to their bookmarks.

https://www.nramuseum.org/media/9409...ver%20list.pdf

Quote:

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Originally Posted by painter777

Don't panic when you see the Western Auto 100 listed as Mossberg Model 321...... Or panic I don't care

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I probably would've except Model 321 is what my newest Blue Book shows in the index pages. I still have one BB that's several years older - will have to look if it's any different.

Hope you saw that RCR's "Rowdy" won Sunday? Ammo Inc. 9mm is selling for $13/box here now. Wonder how many of us it would take to convince Richard to add .30 Carbine to their line? If they could produce and sell it for around $20, I'd buy some. I wonder where they're getting their primers? - Bob

Edit: Just now opened the NRA Museum Link - The pages are straight out of the BB. I'll see if the page numbers match the edition I have. It's the 39th.
2nd edit: Those 7 pages appear to be identical to those in my newer book, but with page numbers from a different edition.
3rd edit: The "store cross-over" in my 20 year old BB is about half a page shorter and has an outdated area code for Numrich on page 1.

If you go to the website "Rimfire Central" there is a subgroup dedicated to Mossberg. There guys will know anything you need to know.
I bought one just like that marked Mossberg with a scope in .22 mag. In 1965 for $37 from Cinnabar Rifle Shop (Andy's) Petaluma CA. Traded it to my father for his Browning 1910 .380 to smuggle into VN in 1966.