Good Afternoon,
I am again toying with purchasing and then shooting the TG. Looks like cases and dies are available but the bullets are the issue. Anyone know a shop that can fabricate them or already has do such. Thanks, Randy
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Good Afternoon,
I am again toying with purchasing and then shooting the TG. Looks like cases and dies are available but the bullets are the issue. Anyone know a shop that can fabricate them or already has do such. Thanks, Randy
Your chances of finding anything „off the shelf“ are slim, but I wish you luck!
Have you considered using hard-cast bullets? Getting a mould made to your specification would not be a problem. But buying jacketed bullets made to order will be a bank-breaker, as you would effectively have to order a lifetime‘s supply in one lot to bring down the unit cost and to ensure that you still have supplies in a couple of years time.
BTW, I once met a guy who uses home-made bullets for his BMG50 - also an expensive taste in ammo! He reforms cartridge cases (45-70, I seem to recall) and fills them with lead to create a bullet with a nearly-complete jacket but with a bare lead nose. If you have the time, that seems like an interesting possibility.
However you load it, if you do acquire a T-Gewehr, please tell us all about it!
Patrick
Good Morning Patrick,
Yes, this is going to be perhaps my greatest endeavor at a resurrection. The simplest, and perhaps the cheapest, answer seems to be a machinist who can turn brass rods into solid bullets. I have tried several shops and they were No-go. With the T-Gewehr at .525, I am trying to get those folks to just move up their 50BMG bullets just a bit to help me out.
While scanning the collector websites, I read references to folks discussing group buys for brass and bullets from Germany. When PMed they seem to be off line. Thanks, Randy
I agree with Patrick and was thinking about it yesterday. I'd cast as well, after you get a mold cut it would last forever. Steel block of course...and make it about a three grease groove bullet. I wouldn't try to copy the boat tail of the original bullet though if I was casting. Make a size die as well and top punch...
An example of what would be feasible:
Over here in Mauserland, the Hensel company has in their online list a steel mold for a 700 grain bullet with diameter 0.515". The T-Gewehr bullet was about 800 gn with diameter 13.2mm 0.520". Hensel make their molds with CNC cutting equipment So cutting the 0.515" to 0.520-0.521" (maybe add a thou for an unjacketed lead bullet?) just means dialling in a slightly different dimension in the CNC file.
I have no connection with Hensel, other than as a very satisfied user - when I bought my Pedersoli Gibbs (nominal cal. 0.451") they cut a "451" mold to fit the actual bore with a bullet diameter of 0.4495" when using the specified 3% tin-lead alloy. A perfect "as-cast" fit! Yes, they will adjust the mold to allow for the shrinkage of your particular alloy. Define your alloy and slug the bore, and Hensel will make a mold to fit.
The extra diameter would increase the cast weight to about 715gn. Enough to get the T-Gewehr "feeling" in your shoulder, I think!
If you are a perfectionist and insist on the full 800gn, Hensel will surely do it, but there is likely to be a surcharge for the longer than standard mold blocks (i.e. a bit more material and a bit more twiddling of the CNC file).
There are surely specialists on your side of the pond who can do the same.
BTW, I hope you have the book by Wolfgang Kern "Das Tankgewehr Mauser M1918"**. If not, get it and read it before buying anything.
Good luck - and don't forget the photos if you do get a T-Gewehr!
Patrick
**ISBN 3-933481-06-6 - A dimensioned original Mauser drawing of the T-Gewehr cartridge is on P. 108
Note re. bullet diameter.
I see that you quoted the T-Gewehr bullet as 0.525" diameter. But the Mauser drawing gives it as 13.2mm (=0.5196mm). With a groove diameter of 13.28 = 0.5228".
In other words, the bullet was quite clearly smaller than the groove diameter Do not fall into the possibly disastrous trap of assuming that the bullet had groove diameter!
0.525" = 13.335mm. That would be seriously oversize for the T-Gewehr.
Be very, very careful converting between inches and mm.
I would recommend turning them as the best way for simplicity sake as well as cheapest considering how much you are likely going to shoot it, though getting a custom press die for copper jackets then casting lead into it and pressing it to size would also work. It all depends on what exactly your looking for.
Any shop with a CNC lathe could likely pump out some brass bullets quickly, the only thing being they might not like the idea of making bullets as to the potential liability of it (i.e. a couple thou can make a big difference in pressure). These bullets would also be lighter than the originals for the same length so that is also a factor.
I have two cartridges here and one of them comes apart by hand. The bullet is exactly .524" no matter how many times you measure or where around it. Not oval or squeezed nor is it fired.Quote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
Good Evening All,
I have sent a request to a brass smith that I have used to make barrel bands for my older rifles/muskets. Not sure is he will take this project on as he is in CA and might have the same concerns stated by Eaglelord17. Attached are the dimensions I sent to him. There is an email out to a bookseller for Kern's "Das Tankgewehr Mauser M1918." Thanks, Randy
Attachment 123494
Re. Bullet diameter: I can only repeat what appears on just about every second page of the Lyman manual - „Slug your bore and size accordingly“
On rifles that are more than a century old, one-time manufacturing dimensions must be treated as guidelines, not guarantees!
Agreed! Just got news that my brass smith is hesitant because of liability. He said I need a munitions shop to make the bullets. Any recommendations? Thanks, Randy
Just got some good news. My third round of bulletmakers have said they would take on the job. I am now in need of the Twist Rate for the T-Gewehr. Thanks, Randy.
If you have the rifle, you can use a rod and brush to determine your twist...Quote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
Do not have one yet. I am just watching one for right now. Thanks, Randy
I would have got one re-barrelled in 50 BMG reason being unlimited supply of brass, barrels, projectiles and load data plus you keep the original barrel so when you do sell it you'll get more $'s for it as a collectable instead of one that's been well used, allot of Boys .55's were re-barreled to 50BMG.
No question, using the 50 BMG barrel, as some T-Gewehrs have been converted to, is the most economical way to go. I first thought about buying one about 5 years ago and it was setup with both barrels priced at $10K. Yes, the reloading startup costs are daunting:
1. Dies from CH4D are almost $500 + Shellholder
2. Cases from RCC are $17/each
3. I am pricing out the bullets today
To me, as the ultimate Milsurps Bolt Action Rifle, I got to go as original as possible. You get to a point in life, I am 63, that you start working on the bucket list and this was one of the first on the list some 40 years ago. Thanks, Randy
Twist rate: 1 turn pr. 15.75 In
Jsne
Lee will make custom molds for you. But they are crazy busy now. Try lead bullets and down-load the charge. A few years back the Reno Gunshow had 3 (yes, 3!) T guns for sale. Good luck.
Got some good news on the bullets. Solid copper for $4each which is not too bad as this is very much a labor of love and top of the bucket list. Will be working on the rifle soon. Thanks, Randy
---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------
Thanks Jsne. Got the spec over to the bulletmaker. Randy
Well, you aren't going to be shooting any 30-shot competition series with that monster, are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
"You get to a point in life, I am 63, that you start working on the bucket list and this was one of the first on the list some 40 years ago."
Yeah, not getting younger, healthier, richer or prettier - time to get things done!
Eagerly awaiting progress reports!
Good Morning Patrick,
Have you just thrown down the proverbial gauntlet? I think I could shoot 30 rounds standing/sitting at the table. If you told me to do this in the prone positing, I would have to revert to my NY roots and tell you forgetaboutit! Will let you know when I secure the beast.
Randy
The T-Gewehr Whisperer
Good Afternoon All,
The T-Gewehr was purchased today and will be on its way to Miami shortly. For those who have been helping me with information and support, I want to thank you. The T-Gewehr has been on my bucket list since 1976, and I only wish dad was still here to get his shoulder bruised along side his son. My love and profession of history came from him.
There will be more questions for all of you once the rifle arrives. As quick as I can, I will definitely post pictures. Range report is looking like at least 3-4 months till components and dies arrive.
Thanks Again,
Randy
Pics, pics, pics... I've seen them in the whole before and personally have two rounds...a bit more rifle than we're allowed here presently. I'd probably have to deactivate it here. Picture heavy thread coming. I don't recall anyone doing a good set of close ups on one of these here before.Quote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
Will do. Probably will have the pictures up in about 10 days. Randy
Good Evening All,
Finally can say that the first item on the bucket list is now no more. All is well, except a missing action screw. Seller is on vacation this week and his shop will be checking with him when he returns.
Here are some pics of the new baby.
Proud Poppa!
Attachment 124081Attachment 124080Attachment 124079Attachment 124078Attachment 124077Attachment 124076Attachment 124075Attachment 124074Attachment 124073
Sorry about those photos. Will flip them for you tomorrow. Randy
Very nice...now for about 50 rounds of brass.
Thanks. 50 cases and .525" bullets are being prepped as we speak. The cases will be made to factory specs. Randy
https://www.rccbrass.com/product/13x...anti-tank-tuf/
Got an issue with the T18 rear sights. Looks like it was bent while at the 500 yard setting. Suggestions on fixing. Thanks, Randy
Attachment 124088
I'll bet that will bend back without trouble.
Jim,
I was thinking to put the long piece in my vise and then try to bend the shorter piece, with the slider, into place. Thanks, Randy
Yes, protected jaws and all... I would likely use a 15" crescent wrench for the bend. That way it's slow and controlled?Quote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
NO NO NOQuote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
NO NO NOQuote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I hope I'm misunderstanding both of you. Using hand-held wrenches is not the way to fix this!
I'm serious. Been there, done that - on an Enfield No1MKV backsight. Please do NOTHING until I've had a chance to post a sketch for you.
It's very late here (11 PM) so give me a chance and wait 24 hrs!
I repeat - I'm serious!
Patrick
Is the slider jammed? Probably. Please reply a.s.a.p. as that partially determines what I need to write/sketch - the first job is to get the slider free.
No, I was serious Patrick. I've done it before too... But I'm up for your method...lets hear it? I've not worked on a "T 18" before.
Sorry Jim - I was a bit alarmed by seeing the word "wrench". I hope to be able to compose a picture story this evening.
I half expect by next time we hear, he'll have it straight.
Good Morning All,
Sorry for the delay. I had ta plane trip from hell last night with an additional 6-hour wait at Miami heading to LA. The slider is jammed with absolutely no movement all. Thanks, Randy
---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------
As to the large Action Bolt. Thanks to Frosty/Brian who removed the bolt from his T-Gewehr and sent me the measurements. What I still need is the thread pitch. We still hope it will be found by the seller but I do want to get all the details for making a new one. Thanks, Randy
Keep watching Randy - maybe this will cheer you up after your flight:)
As I wrote yesterday - here comes a picture story. It's one of those cases where pics say a lot more than thousands of words.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I expected - the slider is jammed on the ladder. Why? Well, it will have happened something like this...
This is how your sight ladder looks now:
Attachment 124110
This is a representation of how it should be. The small clamp is a stand-in for the backsight notch...
Attachment 124109
This is how it was bent...
Attachment 124111
This is why it is jammed...
Attachment 124112
... the bends will have appeared at the ends of the slider. If you now try to force the slider back, it will be FUBARed :mad:
The next part will reveal how to straighten the sight. Stay tuned - or maybe make a cup of coffee while I continue to compose?
Will do. Thanks.
I see the u-shape that is problematic. Thanks
Now we have an idea of how it happened, we can think about fixing it.
It will be easier to do this if you can remove the backsight ladder. However, if this is not feasible without damage, then it would be possible to straighten the sight without removing it, but you will need a very secure fixing to hold the rifle. I don't think that dropping a T-Gewehr would be a good idea:eek:
You need two engineers clamps of a suitable size. If you do not have any, take the trouble to borrow a couple before trying any lash-ups with wrenches etc. The advantage of engineeers clamps is that they can be adjusted for a very good parallel grip AND serve as alignment tools. But cover the jaw surfaces with tape (in yellow here) before applying them to the backsight ladder!
The first/larger clamp is fixed to the lower section of the ladder, close to the jammed slider. Note that just about any vice would be too wide to hold this section, because of the boss for the axis pin.
Attachment 124113
Take your time to set it up square!
Now attach the smaller clamp to the upper section, also close to the jammed slider. And take your time here as well.
Attachment 124114
Clamping the ladder close to the slider ensures that the straightening (which is a counter-bending) takes place where the bends happened (see part 1) and not further away. If you do not clamp the ladder in this manner, it will take slight bends outside the slider area, resulting in a multiple S-Z curve that will be well-nigh impossible to remove.
You will see in the example that the severe right-angled nature of engineers clamps means that the clamping screws themselves show up any bends. If the ladder is perfectly straight, then the screws on both clamps will be parallel.
Attachment 124115
And if not, which for your ladder is certainly the case, then the trick is to bend the ladder by forcing the far end of the screw on the smaller clamp Left or Right to correct a bend - OR Up/Down to correct a twist - until the screws on both clamps are parallel horizontally and vertically. I.e. you can use this setup to correct a bend AND a twist! This should not require a wrench of any kind. But if it does, then use the wrench (ugh!) on the parallel clamp jaws between the two screws, and not on the clamp screw itself:nono:
This will be easier if you can remove the backsight and mount the entire assembly in a bench vice...
Attachment 124116
I used this method on the backsight for an Enfield No1MkV which had been knocked skewy - i.e. bent in all 3 axes into a twisted parallelogram! Your case should be much easier. It might not be micron-precise, but should be accurate enough to be able to move the slider, which will then probably be a bit loose on the ladder, its slots having been widened by the bending (See Part 1). It will then be necessary to close up the slider a bit to prevent it being sloppy.
It worked for me, it'll work for you.
Good luck - and go carefully:wave:
Patrick
Patrick this is excellent! I am in LA till Thursday and will be ordering two clamps. My colleagues are educators who should never own tools and have none to load. So, I will be securing two clamps shortly. When I get home next week, will give it a go.
Also dealing with the missing large, action screw. Need to the thread pitch as we prepare for possibly making a new one.
Thanks Much!
Randy
Good Evening Patrick,
I have been able to move the slider but unable to remove the slider/rail from the sights. I am also unable to remove base from the rifle. At this point, I am hesitant to try to force the issue as this rifle is in fine condition. I am trying not to go for with the mallet, tape, and wood. Thanks, Randy
Attachment 124553Attachment 124554Attachment 124555Attachment 124556
Does the sight not push down and come out the back end of the sight base?
Good Evening,
The slider easily goes between 100 and 500 to smoothly stops at 500. Randy
I meant the sight coming out of the base. Not the adjustment of the slider. They should depress at the front and unseat from the base, come off the rifle.
Like this...look at about 20 second mark.
How to remove the rear sight leaf of Mauser rifles in 5 minutes - YouTube
At work now but will give it a Go tonight. Great video. Thanks! Randy
Good Morning All,
Got the sights just about where they should be and I will stop here. Thanks All!
Attachment 124583
Well done! That'll do to get it going. Now lets see some shooting! OK, I realize that it'll take a while to manufacture some cartridges.:D
Thanks! Looking to be about 90 days for the lathe-created cartridges. Powder, primers, and a running motor hear in Miami while I have have not heard back on the bullets or dies. Again, thanks to all. Randy
Next Issue.
The first version bipod is in excellent condition but I am wondering about the originality of the heavily applied paint:
Attachment 124584Attachment 124585Attachment 124586Attachment 124587Attachment 124588Attachment 124589
What say you all? Thanks, Randy
Hard to say. It's been a hundred years after all. Most of those were destroyed in action so how does one come out newish?
Agreed. That's why I am wondering what's under all that nice paint. Not sure where I caught some text on reproductions coming out of France? Do I have an original or reproduction. Randy
I can't even guess decently about originality on this one. Too rare...
Look closely at the 4th foto. One can see a screw head with a burred slot. The paint is intact on top of the burred metal. The burring action would have produced blank metal at this point.
I therefore deduce that the paint at least is not original. No surprise after a century!
However, the fact that the paint is of later date does not provide decisive evidence about the originality of the metal underneath. It could have been used - repainted - and used again.
If you also come to the conclusion that the paint is not original, then it would not be harmful in the antique-original sense to remove the paint in very small areas to reveal the markings. Although markings are the most obvious features for fakery!
That leaves us with the standard question: does the wear pattern look believable?
As Jim pointed out, we have no objects available for comparison, and the present set of photos leave me with a “could be???” feeling.
More close-ups of the wear points please!
Gentlemen, more photos tomorrow. I will need the daylight to get at the areas that may give us a better clue. Thanks, Randy
There's such a variation in the bipods too. Seems to be several different types...
Yes, mine is the early, rivetted version. As I can see on the images of that first version above, there is that green paint. While the paint on my bipod is similar, and has been laid on thick as I have seen on others like mine, it does look like it was painted recently. Images at several auction sites do show these early bipods without paint. In those images, the early bipods seem to have a similar finish to the later model bipods. I am suggesting that the black finish of the second version might also be what was given to or has developed on the first version bipod. This is leading me more and more to removing the thick, newish, green paint. Randy
According to the book "Das Tankgewehr Mauser M 1918" by Wolfgang Kern (ISBN 3-933481-06-6), the bipod in Jim's 1st foto is an original Tankgewehr bipod, made from solid material. There are probably very few of those still around.
The one favored by the PBI who had to carry all that gear was the bipod for the MG 08/15, which was a much lighter "plug-in" replacement. This is the type in Jim's 2nd and 3rd fotos. That is what Randy has got. There are probably considerably more of these around, reflecting the larger quantity of MG 08/15s. And the color of the paint (if it is even original) does not seem to indicate a different version.
The book mentions (P116) that if one had to make a "strategic withdrawal" the heavy bipod was the first thing to be dumped, and also observes that the majority of photos of a T-Gewehr in the field show it without a bipod at all. Many riflemen would have seen little sense in using a bipod (which anyway tended to sink into the muddy earth) and thus be forced to stick one's head out further than absolutely necessary. Resting the beast on the parapet of the trench was simpler - and safer!
Randy, that book is a must! And if anyone knows a better one on the T-Gewehr, please let me know!
According to the book "Das Tankgewehr Mauser M 1918" by Wolfgang Kern (ISBN 3-933481-06-6), the bipod in Jim's 1st foto is an original Tankgewehr bipod, made from solid material - and very heavy. There are probably very few of those still around.
The one favored by the PBI who had to carry all that gear was the bipod for the MG 08/15, which was a much lighter "plug-in" replacement. That is what Randy has got. There are probably considerably more of these around, reflecting the larger quantity of MG 08/15s.
The book also mentions (P116) that if one had to make a "strategic withdrawal" the heavy bipod was the first thing to be dumped, and also observes that the majority of photos of a T-Gewehr in action show it without a bipod at all. Many riflemen would have seen little sense in using a bipod (which anyway tended to sink into the muddy earth) and thus be forced to stick one's head out further than absolutely necessary. Resting the beast on the parapet of the trench was simpler - and safer!
Randy, that book is a must! And if anyone knows a better one on the T-Gewehr, please let me know!
The first pic I posted is a recovered bipod that has been cleaned after being burned...in a fire. The pics of it covered in scale had no bearing so... I agree the bipod the OP shows is original but the paint is likely added. The little markings should be easy enough to verify?
Good Morning All,
This weekend I am going to remove a small test patch of paint in a discrete location to see what's underneath. I guess I will add the tubular bipod to the "want/need" list! I hope it does not take as long to find that bipod as it took me to secure the T18. Randy
Are these not the same mount used by the '08/'15 Maxim gun?
As far as I can tell from the book, the users just dumped the heavy original and used the 08/15 bipod without any alteration - hence my use of the term “plug-in replacement”. It happened in the field, where alterations would hardly have been feasible.
Perhaps somebody out there has a 08/15 AND a T-Gewehr, and can make a direct comparative measurement?
More realistically: it appears that there are some 08/15s in the hands of forum members, so the mounting could be measured and the results published here for that Randy to compare with the T-Gewehr.
Randy: why don‘t you just post an information request on the MG forum?
This photo - Post #3 in the thread:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=42632
shows the presumed T-Gewehr heavy bipod on a 08/15. This supports the conclusion that they were simply swappable. I.e. the heavy bipod initially used on the T-Gewehr seems to have been originally developed for the 08/15. So if you want a heavy bipod for your T, look for the 08/15 sources.
There was a series of books written by Hans Helmut Kirst around a WW1 soldier, using the nickname 08/15.
The title of the novel "Gunner Asch goes to War" is, in the original "08/15 im Krieg".
To understand this choice, you need (yes, really!) to know that the 08/15 was such a common object for the PBI in WW1 that "08/15" became a byword equivalent to the British "bog standard", i.e. totally ordinary. Familiar to us grandpas, but not to the internet generation.
Good Evening,
With the help of Scott (Georgia) and Brian (Manitoba) I have successfully reproduced the missing large action bolt and the T-Gewehr is now complete and waiting for cartridge components. Randy
Attachment 125454
Good Afternoon,
Now let's get picky. As you can see in the photo, the new bolt is blue and the finish for the T-Gewehr is brown. What solution(s) and process would I need to brown the new bolt. Thanks, Randy.
I think you'd need an acid wash to brown it a bit. There are firearm manufacturers that produce new firearms with this brownish "Rustish" look. I don't mean browning...
Thanks Jim. Looking at Browning techniques and a few vendors who sell the solutions. Randy
Good Afternoon All,
Finally!! I got the T-Gewehr to the range:
1918 T-Gewehr at the Range - YouTube
It was amazing and not as bad as I expected. Randy
That was a long trip. Well worth seeing. No, it wouldn't be so bad. I had the chance to shoot a Boys rifle back in the '80s and it was about the same. The heavy mass absorbs most of the recoil. That would be very satisfying to bang the steel gongs with...Quote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
Good Evening,
Not satisfied with status quo, I have had to move to permanently using 50BMG cases for the T. Was waiting on RCC Brass to make some cases to original specs but bankruptcy got the better of them. So, it has to be 50BMG from now on.
While BMG works in the T, it is a bit sloppy and requires much fiddling to get it working right. I do not have the patience or time to do such and sent my bolt to John Taylor in Idaho to make a new extractor and bolthead inserts. John is amazing and what came back works great. Now, the BMG cases are firmly held by the bult-head and ignition/extraction works perfectly.
Randy
Attachment 130177Attachment 130178Attachment 130179
What a massive piece of ordnance.
They call it the cannon at my local range. Randy
My recommendation would be to ask the next shop about making some solid metal feet for a run of Mid-Century wooden trays you're going to have made. You know, four per tray and a hundred trays to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by rescuerandy2
;)