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Long time since Ive posted on here, I mostly just read the posts and enjoy you'alls back and forth. I have a 1/45 Inland and a 5/44 Winchester and Id like some help on who's front sight this is, because it sure doesnt look like an SG. Also, the front barrel band, is it SG? The flip sight
has no markings on either side. Are the marks in front of the flip sight signs that it had an adjustable sight? I am not in possession of the rifle.
If the markings on the receiver in front of the sight are the same as the serial number then its a good bet it had an adjustable rear sight at some point.
I'm not sure I understand. In front of the rear sight? I didnt think they looked like numbers, but I don't know anything about staking.
Barrel band looks like a salvage job, or the inspector was sick that day. Some commercial bands have a hole on top of the band. That might be a modified type III or commercial.
Hello Riverrat,Quote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
Nice to see you back around, also seen your a new member on the CCCF. :thup:
What Bruce is wondering is if the serial number had been stamped in front of the rear sight. This was done (at times) when a Adj rear sight was installed and made reading the serial number hard to see. Adj sights were usually heavily staked with punch marks that looked like craters on the moon. When zoomed in I don't see these stake marks on this one. The current rear sight looks real enough, maybe better pictures would show markings on the sides or on a leaf. Some of the books say some Flip sights weren't marked, but that would be rare. I see the ridge on the front sight and closer pics may show it's marking.
Some concerns like the barrel band Floyd pointed out is from a commercial carbine. No USGI band used a Phillips head screw. One view of the barrel makes it appear like it has some shadow/wear from having a late style bayonet band on it, but that could be the picture. But for sure that front sight has been removed, even if just to remove the bayo band or install the current barrel band.
The markings or remnants of being seen on the front bevel between the front of the rear sight and rear of the bolt may be what's left of the marking K.art which stands for the Coastal Artillery in Norway. I've seen this marking electro penciled/engraved and/or stamped. Normally when seen it has another marking done the same way that I believe stands for the unit, section or something similar. I've seen the K.ART on the recoil plate and the other marking on the rear bevel behind the rear sight or vice versa. I've also seen the markings on the front bevel and rear bevel. Without better pictures I can't be sure on yours. I see some light grind marks on your recoil plate, but is possible the rear bevel on that receiver has been ground on to remove one of the markings, then refinished.
I have a few pictures and a link that you can look at and see if you can recognize the markings on the front.
BTW, most all K.ART's I've seen are import marked. Many came thru CAI.
1st one I seen at a gun show the seller told me the KART stood for Korean Army Reserve Training. This KART stamp was on the rear of the receiver. The other markings had been grinded off the recoil plate. When I asked why they'd remove or grind there he said: " Any US Carbine brought back from Korea had to be grinded there"
I asked why they would grind it?
He replied:
"So we know it came back from Korea"
I knew what it was but must admit it was entertaining listening to his skit :lol:
Just to be clear because I'm tired, I have seen the K. ART stamped on the receiver just at the rear of your bolt. I suck at trying to crop pictures, below I was trying to draw attention to the rear bevel on the receiver... Where I believe the other marking was, but has been ground away and finish doctored.
Link to a couple other Karts:
New guy with an OLD Friend - The Carbine Collector's Club
KART K98: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=41953
HTH,
Hi Charlie! I don't have the rifle.....yet, but it was represented as all Saginaw, the place sells alot of quality firearms and has an excellent rating. I was on the road and could only view the pics with my cell phone(I know, big mistake). I bid and won. Now, I got home and could look much closer and am seeing alot of problems. Ive mailed the money orders, but the guy has a 3 day return policy. Its going to cost me, but better than losing the whole thing. I posted this in the hopes you all would say its a fine carbine with a few problems, but worth a shot. Its on consignment at the guys shop, so I doubt he knows that much about the rifle. There have just been so few decent carbines out there, so I "hoped" a little too much. Im not even sure my conscience will let me back out. I'm the one who bid. I thought the barrel band screw was just a replacement with the same threads, easy enough to fix. There is a pic of the bottom of the barrel and I saw no sign of import marks. I'm off to Utah tomorrow, so it'll be friday before I can deal with this again. As always, I respect your opinion, and Thank you. Scott
I went to the gunshop to see it firsthand. You guys are spot on! K.art on the bevel below the front of the bolt. rear bevel below the serial number ground down(but somebody did a good job grinding it) I called the guy and told him the problems. He said it was on consignment and he knew little of carbines. I think the barrel must have been replaced, there is no import stamp underneath or anywhere else. No shaded area where the bayonet lug would have been. He told me he would accept a return, and not charge me the 15% restocking fee. So, he is an honest guy.
I've heard about K.art examples without Import markings. Read about reports from here in the States and from Canadian owners.
I know M1 carbines were used by the Norwegian resistance fighters. I read about them on a Norway museum site and seen a M1a1 with a German scope on it that belonged to a Officer, General (?).
Norway also received Carbines thru the MAP Program: Foreign Military Assistance
I seen part of a Documentary about Norway trying to push out the Germans.... before help from Great Britain started. It's in Norwegian (I happen to be 1/4 Norwegian and 1/4 Danish) but used google translate to watch what I did see. When time allows I'd like to see the rest. It was called 'Alliert og Alene’ aka ‘Allied and Alone’
I believe it was a 3 part series.
You know that Carbine could have made it back here well before Import stamps were required.
I'm not sure maybe someone knows if the CMP ever released any.
There's a Carbine Newsletter that had some info about Norway's Carbines, I'll try to find it when I can.
I believe I can see a Punch style stake mark @ the rear sight, if so very likely it had a adj rear sight.
But IMO I'd be happy to own a K.art even if it needed a couple tweaks. It has added 'History'.
Most likely, Your Carbine being marked K.art was part of the 1950-1963 MAP program.
I believe there were 6~ Norwegian Agencies that used them. So markings can vary, but K.art seems to be the most commonly reported. Not that they are common or seen that often....... at least by me.
Lastly over on the CCCF there is a Saginaw Receiver research project going on. Your serial number falls in the window. Take a look: Club Assistance Saginaw Receivers - The Carbine Collector's Club - Page 1
Cheers,
ETA: I found the picture of the Scoped M1A1 but it's in the Imperial War Museum in London. This M1 Carbine, which was used by Norwegian resistance during WWII,
Link: POTD: Norwegian Resistance M1 Carbine with German ZF-41 (The Original Scout Scope) -The Firearm Blog
Thank you Charlie, I can always count on your knowledge and expertise. My problem is I work 6 days a week in the oilfield( this week was 7). My milsurps collection is small, but growing, hopefully. I only occasionally scrape up the extra money to splurge on another gun. I need to get what I think I'm bidding on. The norwegian carbine could be very interesting in the future, but I'ts not what I'm looking for now. I don't believe the seller did this on purpose, but he didnt show the K.art mark. The carbine had an adjustable sight, the rear bevel was ground down and coated with something that was very close to the parkerizing, and the barrel could have been replaced to hide the import stamp and signs of a bayonet lug. I think someone really tried to make a not too expensive carbine into an expensive one. Thanks to all of you I was able to see the discrepancies. I love the research being done on that Saginaw serial number block, but I shipped it back to the seller while I was at my gunshop. I'm not good at saying things the right way(my wife reminds me of that regularly) So, please know I respect all of your opinions. That was just not the gun I thought it was. :)
That was very well said! Charlie has been a tremendous help to myself also and his advice and support has helped to save many M1 carbines.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
Appreciate the kind words guys but there were many that helped me early on and continue to this day. We all have a invested interest in helping each other by staying informed.
No matter what arms your in to we are only the current caretakers. Preserve the history of those who developed, made and carried these arms, while having a little fun as we go. :dancingbanana:
We are really fortunate we have Forums like this where we can share what we come across.
Even when we get off base at times and get pad locked by the 'Turn Key' ..... just kidding BW :red face:
I was watching this Carbine's auction. You really have to look closely at the Auctions pictures. You'd see a RA rebuild mark on the right of the stock and a ghost AA (?) on the left. There were 37 bids from roughly 20~ bidders but no clear view of the K.ART stamp and it wasn't cheap. Seeing the grinding on the rear bevel was a clue it might be a K.ART and in one picture a hint of the marking but not clear enough to be positive. But if I had won and was expecting a pretty nice S.G. then seen the K.ART stamp, I would have returned this carbine also. I purchased a freshly listed Buy it now late RMC on GB at a pricey cost a few years back and returned it because it had the serial number stamped forward of the rear sight. I felt bad about it, but it wasn't pictured and the cost way too high. The seller was cool about it. I paid his restocking fee and covered the shipping costs both ways. He just missed it in the pictures and wasn't familiar enough with carbines and all the markings.
Worked out better for him on his relist it sold for more with pics and description on the added SN#.
To me a good deal is both a happy seller and buyer. A happy seller often offers you the next carbine via private sale. I even use the ole finders fee to guys that refer a carbine my way.
Cheers All,
The guy refunded every penny, even the shipping. I was not expecting that.
The guy relisted the Carbine exactly as he did when I first saw it. He didn't show the K.art stamp or mention it. I'm kinda disappointed about that, but oh well. I'm watching it and I'll see how it comes out.
Probably hoping for a buyer that is not a member of any forum haha
He does show the K.art marking, it is in the pictures he has below his description.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
GB used to have all auction pics below the description....IIRC. I hardly ever scroll down there anymore because they're rarely there. Thanks and Semper Fi.
That marking is just inside the frame of the pic (#16). You'd really need to be looking for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by W5USMC
Anyways I see it sold yesterday 5-1-22 for more $$ than before, $2550.00.
Won by a guy with No previous rating.
've got the ended auction in my watch box.
We'll see if it pops up again.
A Hard Lesson= $2550.00, + $75 Ship + Tax + GB Fee to pay your tax.
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/930264135
Personally think that seller should have emphasized the K.art marking as a selling point in the description. I would love to add a K.art marked carbine to my collection, just maybe not for $2550.
Exactly why the K art mark wasn't mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by W5USMC
Wayne,
Me being part Norwegian, I'd like one also but intact with the rear bevel marking still there.
But agree not @ $2500+
Same here, I decended from Ole, have a few of those Norwegian M4 bayonets and would love a K art. But not the right one here at that price.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
I don't know if the buyer will realize what it is in the first 3 days, maybe. Am I allowed to hijack my own thread? Rockola hammers are marked KR according to Riesch, but is KR2 correct also?
The Nerve of some guys !! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
Yes KR2 is legit.
I had one marked in the same spot as yours KR2 and had KR in the recess on the other side years back. Gave it to someone that had to have it.
Riesch's 6th shows the KR2 but does have at least one error on Rockola hammers - I'm curious if yours is a newer or older edition? TIA :thup: - BobQuote:
Originally Posted by SRiverrat11
I have Riesch's 6th. I must have missed it, I only saw the KR. New thread coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by USGI