Questions on Winchester Finishes and Decisions to Make.....

So, I have a conundrum.

I have a relatively early Winchester receiver. Q1 1942. The receiver was purchased by itself, the other parts in the pics are not in any way original to it (yeah, those are repro rear sight drums and spindle).

The park is worn, patchy at best. Zero rust. Zero pitting.

Could this be the original finish? What is left is dark grey with a slight green cast. In the second picture, in the middle of the flat behind the receiver ring there appears to be black under the grey. Hard to get it in the pic.

The very fine belt sanding marks on the receiver heel indicate (to me anyway) that it was not media blasted again after initial park (I don’t think that Winchester blasted much at all before park). All the rough machining lay, burr knife, and file marks are intact and only worn where there were other parts sliding against them.

What did Winchester finish with initially? Manganese or zinc (haha, yeah, some say dulite)? If they switched from manganese to zinc, do we know when?

I am setting up for both manganese as well as zinc. I am going to be playing with techniques to get the zinc to turn green.

For a stripped receiver as opposed to a complete rifle, does it have any effect on the value if I re-park it?

Is there any compelling reason to not refinish this? Will I be kicking myself a decade from now if I do? I know that in the vintage car and motorcycle world, there is the phrase, “It can be restored as many times as needs be, but it’s only original once”.

Thanks ya'll

It's already not original as it was just a stripped receiver. The finish is all over the place, a refinish is in order.

Thanks Jim,

I need to learn then what Winchester was using to finish M1s Q1 of 1942.

Mang or zinc. Were they charcoal grey manganese? Any green tint? I think I have seen some all original mid-war Winnies in the GCA magazine that were light zinc and almost pea green overall.

This will get to be interesting as I play around with finishes. There are essentially three types of steels the M1 is made from. Mild steel, spring steel (oprod and such made from 6150) and the carbourized parts (receiver, bolt, ect). I need to play with finishing the different types of parts to see if they finish differently.

I'm going to start with just bead blasting as opposed to using aluminum oxide or slag.

Bought this from the CMP auction in 2011 listed as an original finish three digit Winchester receiver. Canfield states Winchester used parkerized finish. The early Winchester receivers appear to me as a darker color, around the WRA 1.2 million range the color is more of a lighter parkerizing. Last three photos are a WRA 1,2 mil


If your just going to build up your receiver as a rebuild with different parts, the color is up to you Attachment 125365Attachment 125366Attachment 125367Attachment 125368Attachment 125369Attachment 125370

I appreciate the post.

So switchover from manganese to zinc was sometime around Feb 1943 then. Thanks for the contrasting pictures.

It looks like I should make everything black manganese.

I know the rifle will be a bit of a kludge, but this rifle will be shot quite a bit. It will at least have the correct grooved bands and forged stock ferrule. Thankfully Winchester kept making slant cut oprods for so long. I'd like to put something together that would be somewhat representative of might have been issued. Where I go out shooting lots of guys have never had the opportunity to shoot an M1.

---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 PM ----------

One more question then, do we know when Springfield switched over from manganese to zinc?

I wish it was recorded somewhere if it was a gradual process. As the mang chemicals run out they switched over to the zinc.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jesse_

this rifle will be shot quite a bit.

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Good, if you do it up black it will wear and develop the wear patterns of a typical service rifle. Perfect...

I agree with the others that it should be refinished. I would also recommend that you have the other metal parts refinished at the same time so they all match. They will also develop matching wear as you use it. Should be really nice when you get done with it.

I have seen them a very smooth black, almost looked like Dulite.

Not quite a decade ago I passed up a very worn Winchester mix master that had translucent blue-black left on the receiver. The wear was very even overall and it had all of the characteristic file, belt sander, and burr knife marks found on very early Winnies (I don't remember the serial number).

It actually looked like it was blued.

That early Winchester satin manganese when worn looks like old bluing then, correct?

The only other times I have seen parkerizing that "translucent" has been on NOS late war SA bolts. Zinc with obviously zero sandblasting before park. Also didn't have any green sheen to speak of.

That translucence is due to lack of blasting and having the solution off?

I need to learn much more about phosphatizing.

If you do a fine silica glass bead blast and black parkerize you'll get a fine matt black finish. Parkerizing forms a structure on the metal surface. Blue needs polish and penetrates into the metal's pores. The green has been attributed to cosmoline being applied. Parkerizing is a liquid solution mixed with water and applied boiling while bluing is a salt that is mixed with water and applied at a different boiling temp.

Thanks!

I meant that I need to delve deeper into its micro structure. I have to know quite a bit about anodizing and plating for work, but I'm lacking when it comes to parkerizing.

Here is my current setup. I''ve done one zinc test part, then went on to a few others where the intent is to turn the parts green. The owner of palmettoenterprisesparkerizing told me to take WWII era cosmo (they have since changed formulation) and slather the parts as soon as they dry coming out of the bath. Then wrap tightly with aluminum foil. The parts will be unwrapped in a week.

The basic grey color matches a buddy's 1911 he got from his grandfather. Grandfather was a Korean War era MP who purchased his duty pistol after service. But it was shipped at a later date (he has the box too...). The pistol's finish is immaculate. Methinks that it was shipped later because he requested it to be refinished and they skipped the chromate bath. I know that there are two lines of thought as to why the park turns green, some people saying cosmo, others the chromate treatment. Ok, enough digression....

SA hated Parkerizing, fought it tooth and nail because it increased friction and changed the dimensions. They found Pentrate, a bluing process, and tried hard to get it accepted instead of Park. In January 1939 they build 10 rifles in the 7000 serial range and sent them to Washington. Ordnance rejected them as too shiny. They made a second lot of 25 in April (12000 range) after frosting the parts with muriatic acid to dull the finish but Ordnance rejected that too. Ord loved the superior rust resistance of Park and finally told SA to shut up and step out smartly. It's one of the very few times SA lost a fight until the M1C/M1D controversy.

Latest effort.

Manganese park. Bead blaster is down so I had to use one filled with old "Black Beauty" slag and kept the pressure down to 45psi. I wasn't particularly careful on prep. This is to test the process.

These were just some test parts. Post war South American buttplate, a SA clip left out in the rain, some sights, and a reproduction rear sight cover that came with a horrible shiny blue (yeah, the ribs look awful, ain't nothing fixing those).

Can't wait to get the bead blaster back up and do another batch of parts or two before a receiver.

Attachment 125430Attachment 125431

Everything looks fine.

You did well!!!

Bob

Tried for years trying to get a green tint to my park metal. Here a couple of pics of my results.

I don't know why everyone worries so much about it, if you have a nice clean grey or black finish and the rifle looks in almost new condition, it'll be a working showpiece.

That's about the best you can ask for.

It looks great. Your years of work paid dividends.

This is my first two weeks attempts.

The part at the far right was slathered with 1944 cosmo then wrapped in foil for a week. It looks to have just the *slightest* green tint.

I still have a buttplate and door wrapped. I will put it in the oven to see if I can accelerate/further the process.

The front sight was manganese parked and came out much much blacker than the far left sight cover.

You are the keeper of many secrets..... :madsmile:

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