Lee Enfield No. 4 Mk I - Seeking Info

Greetings, All! I'm making my rounds around the various sub-forums here looking to get some more information on several surplus rifles I've been purchasing recently. I've done a bit of research on both this and the SMLE No. 1 Mk III* I picked up, but I figured I'd post the photos I took before, during and after the cleaning process to see if anybody could tell me anything interesting about the rifle.

Namely I'm looking to decipher the various stamps and to determine what's original and what's not. What is obvious to me is that the bolt is not original and that it was imported by CAI. Otherwise, any input would be helpful and appreciated! Paid $400 for her.

Google Photo Album

Quite a mixed bag isn't it? The wood has beech butt and birch forend with a couple of Savage marked pieces. Looks like this one was either assembled or just worked every day until it retired. Nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

couple of Savage marked pieces

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What components are marked Savage? Are these the parts with the boxed "S" (what I thought was a "5")?

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Originally Posted by JeffreyJ5

the parts with the boxed "S"

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Yes, classic Savage. Parts were used as required without worry about who made them. "Parts is parts" the saying goes...

Manufactured in 1942 at the Royal Ordnance Factory (RoF) at Maltby in Yorkshire.
Non-Matching numbered parts Body, magazine, & Bolt

It certainly would not have left service like that so I'm wondering if it is a rebuild of a sporterised rifle which is certainly one way to account for the assortment of parts and differing wood types.

Ideally you should have the FIT of the bolt checked for locking lug contact as the bolts are NOT plug & play and need actually FITTING (work needed - not just pushed into the bolt rails) The reason the bolts were numbered was that they are not interchangable between rifles.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

It certainly would not have left service like that so I'm wondering if it is a rebuild of a sporterised rifle which is certainly one way to account for the assortment of parts and differing wood types.

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Interesting. So while parts may have been replaced while in service (overhauls, etc...), components that are marked with serial numbers (the receiver, bolt and magazine) should be matching if it were done in service vs. post service? For example, a bolt could have been replaced while in service, but the serial number would have been applied to said bolt? I assume the same goes for the magazine?

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Originally Posted by JeffreyJ5

Interesting. So while parts may have been replaced while in service (overhauls, etc...), components that are marked with serial numbers (the receiver, bolt and magazine) should be matching if it were done in service vs. post service? For example, a bolt could have been replaced while in service, but the serial number would have been applied to said bolt? I assume the same goes for the magazine?

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Yes, all parts numbered MUST match the body (action) as that is the master component - all parts must be FITTED to suit that body.
Any mismatch will result in (as a minimum) poor or inconsistent loading, inaccurate to (at worst) being dangerous to use.

If an Armourer fitted replacement / new parts to a rifle they would be altered to fit the body and then numbered to match so they should never be separated.

Particularly in the US, when they were imported the bolts and rifles were separated and whe sold, young Joey (on his saturday job) was told "take one of those rifles out of that box, one of those bolts out of that box and slide it in, then wrap it up for despatch"

Only knowledegable dealers knew the importance of 'matching numbers'.

Once a rifle was out in the wilds of civilian life and as it only cost $12, it was cut up and sporterised and used as a truck gun, when old man Jethro dies his family just disposed of it not knowing where the extra parts (bolt and magazine) were.
It was bought by an Enfield enthusiast who decided to rebuild it back to its former military glory and sourced parts from all over and 'stuck it back together'.

Its a bit like the car Johhny Cash built "one piece at a time"


Johnny Cash - One Piece At A Time (Live) - YouTube



Names, characters, places and incidents are products of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual events or locales or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental

Thanks for the explanation for why it's likely mix-matched. I chuckled at the Johnny Cash reference!

It's a little disheartening to learn this is likely why it's in the condition it's in, but I just need to remind myself I didn't buy it to be a museum piece! Hopefully the $800 I spent in total on this and the SMLE No. 1 Mk III* puts me somewhere in the ballpark of a reasonable purchase. I'll have to get that one cleaned up and posted here soon. I've put it off because it's covered in cosmoline.

Based on what I found while cleaning, I'd say the rifle has been shot before so hopefully it's still safe to do so. I'll have to see if there's a local gunsmith knowledgeable on the Lee Enfields that can check it out. I've otherwise had a hell of a time finding the gauges here in the U.S. I've found a few (expensive) ones, but they are SAAMI spec and what I've read leads me to believe I need those made to British "military spec."

Does anybody have any leads on some gauges?

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Originally Posted by JeffreyJ5

Hopefully the $800 I spent in total on this and the SMLE No. 1 Mk III* puts me somewhere in the ballpark of a reasonable purchase.

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I would say so.

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Originally Posted by JeffreyJ5

Does anybody have any leads on some gauges?

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If you type "303 headspace gauges for sale in USA" in your search engine you get no shortage of sources. Also a WTB in the correct forum in this site may glean you a set.

There is no way of knowing who, when or where the miscellaneous parts were assembled to the rifle. Where was the rifle before it was disposed of as surplus?
Incidentally, the safety assembly is Canadian.

Close look at the numbers on the bolt handle shows grinding marks. That bolt had been scrubbed before being mismatched to this rifle.

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Originally Posted by JeffreyJ5

Based on what I found while cleaning, I'd say the rifle has been shot before so hopefully it's still safe to do so. I'll have to see if there's a local gunsmith knowledgeable on the Lee Enfields that can check it out. I've otherwise had a hell of a time finding the gauges here in the U.S. I've found a few (expensive) ones, but they are SAAMI spec and what I've read leads me to believe I need those made to Britishicon "military spec." Does anybody have any leads on some gauges?

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Before going crazy over headspace, take a look at this article - https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...101-for-.303-s

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Originally Posted by oldfoneguy

That bolt had been scrubbed before being mismatched to this rifle.

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I had noticed that. Seems like this bolt is on its third gun minimally. Likely initially stamped, then ground and re-stamped and then added to this gun.

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Before going crazy over headspace, take a look at this article - https://www.milsurps.com/content.php...101-for-.303-s

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Thank you for this. I think I'll just roll the dice, shoot it and inspect the casing afterwards to see if there's anything of concern.

I appreciate all the input, everybody!

Thank you for this. I think I'll just roll the dice, shoot it and inspect the casing afterwards to see if there's anything of concern.
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As someone who broke off the small lug on the replacement bolt in their 1941 Maltby I very strongly recommended that you do a bolt lug contact check before firing the rifle. The procedure is outlined by the Enfield gurus on this site do a search it comes up quickly. The brass WILL NOT show all that's going on inside the action.

As a side note in the Gunsmithing forum I reviewed the new replacement bolt available from Numrich because of incorrect contact and the bolt lug breaking off. Yes the rifle had been fired before I had it but if I checked it previous to firing it multiple times I would have saved myself some money and potential serious injury. Had I fired the rifle one more time I possibly wouldn't be here to tell you this. Don't be this guy!!!

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Originally Posted by oldfoneguy

The procedure is outlined by the Enfield gurus on this site do a search it comes up quickly.

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Would the "Fitting Rifle Bolts" article by Peter Laidler be the procedure you're referencing?

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Originally Posted by JeffreyJ5

Would the "Fitting Rifle Bolts" article by Peter Laidler be the procedure you're referencing?

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Yes, that's exactly what I used as a how to reference.

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Originally Posted by oldfoneguy

As someone who broke off the small lug on the replacement bolt in their 1941 Maltby I very strongly recommended that you do a bolt lug contact check before firing the rifle.... Had I fired the rifle one more time I possibly wouldn't be here to tell you this. Don't be this guy!!!

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Can you elaborate on the incident? How did you notice it happen? What ammo were you using? What actually happened when the lug broke? Did the receiver twist, parts flew out of the rifle, bolt handle jumped up, etc, etc, etc?

The No.4 action is pretty stout and while a failure can happen, I'm having hard time believing it would be catastrophic unless both the small and large lugs sheared.

Yes of course. No actual incident to speak of. Put about 10 rounds out and was done with the rifle for the day. No twisting flying parts or other drama. Ammo was 180gr round nose handloads a formula previously chrono'd right around 2350fps. I never push my old rifles. Came home and put it in the safe to be cleaned another day. Cleaning day came and the Maltby was 3rd in line. Take it out rotate the bolt draw it out and something falls out. Low and behold it's the small bolt lug. After investigating the multiple wear patterns on the lugs it became apparent the long lug wasn't making contact at all and the pressure was being absorbed by the small lug only.
Apparently it could absorb only so much after who knows how many firings in this configuration.

I agree that the No4 is indeed a strong action no denying that. However would you fire the rifle with only one bolt lug? Indeed at that point you would have twisting flying jumping as well as bloody drama. Is that something you would be willing to bet half your face on? Strong yes invincible once compromised absolutely not.

The moral of the story here was to have jeffrey approach this situation with an abundance of caution which I didn't do. Trying to help him avoid the same situation I encountered. For me it worked out ok with blind luck. Not everyone has an angel on their shoulder.