Arnhem

Found this interesting main pic from the battle for the bridge at Arnhem its not the chap in the fore ground;
"Captain John Killick of the 89th Field Security Section on the streets of Arnhem 18th September 1944, with a German prisoner".

Rather A) The arrogant look of their German prisoner
B) The sten in the back ground appears to have a fore grip on it, they all have their bayonets fitted.

Just wondering was the fore grip introduced or was this a field modification not officially adopted by the MoD.
I know special forces customise their rigs to suit themselves just wondering if the practice was apparent in WWII.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Found this interesting main pic from the battle for the bridge at Arnhem its not the chap in the fore ground;
"Captain John Killick of the 89th Field Security Section on the streets of Arnhem 18th September 1944, with a German prisoner".

Rather A) The arrogant look of their German prisoner
B) The sten in the back ground appears to have a fore grip on it, they all have their bayonets fitted.

Just wondering was the fore grip introduced or was this a field modification not officially adopted by the MoD.
I know special forces customise their rigs to suit themselves just wondering if the practice was apparent in WWII.

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They are Sten Mk.V's.
Pretty much all of the Sten's issued to 1st AB Div for OP Market Garden were the new Mk.V version.

Did the 1st Airborne Division also have a small qty of Patchett Mk.Is at Arnhem as well.

Not sure if its true or just a rumor

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Originally Posted by Simon P

Did the 1st Airborne Division also have a small qty of Patchett Mk.Is at Arnhem as well.

Not sure if its true or just a rumor

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Not ever heard that.........and I'd be astonished if it were true, as given that virtually none of the kit taken in, came out, they would have been captured by the Germans.

Some of them went in with M1 Carbines though.

Has the operation taken place a month or two later, they might have gone in with No.5's instead of No.4's as well.

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Originally Posted by Simon P

Did the 1st Airborne Division also have a small qty of Patchett Mk.Is at Arnhem as well.

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I've heard it suggested before but I don't know if it's true.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

I've heard it suggested before but I don't know if it's true.

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Maybe more likely to have been Op Varsity rather than Market Garden IMHO, if it indeed happened at all before VE Day?

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Rather A) The arrogant look of their German prisoner

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After capitulation you could find lots of them that insisted they hadn't been defeated at all, they were ordered to surrender.

It's funny. I look at him and see a man who has been made prisoner and is confident that he will be well-handled. There also appears to be a look of professional interest in what is going on in front of him. Different perspective, I suppose.

I find it hard to forget the camouflage gag from A Bridge Too Far."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5wsMpKJlUA

Bob

The early Mk.5's all had a foregrip; it was discontinued on British guns in 1945.

The other interesting things in the photo of him waking down the street in Arnhem, is the fact he's wearing a RAC dropped holster, as well as it highlighting the special Para version of the battledress trousers with the chamois lined bellows leg pocket for carrying extra kit/ammo as seen to good effect in this photo.

:thup:

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

Not ever heard that.........and I'd be astonished if it were true, as given that virtually none of the kit taken in, came out, they would have been captured by the Germans.

Some of them went in with M1 Carbines though.

Has the operation taken place a month or two later, they might have gone in with No.5's instead of No.4's as well.

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Peter Laidlers book "Guns of Dagenham" page 56 mentions some may have been taken to Arnhem, mentions Serial No's 067, 070 & 072

Hi Guys,
From a Parachute Regiment Museum perspective, this question comes up fairly regularly. We have to deal with facts.

The South Staffs were apparently supposed to have taken 100 with them on Operation Market Garden. I can conclusively state at the time of the commencement of the Operation there were non manufactured.
There is no mention on STICK lists we hold or QM weaponry taken. We also hold the German lists of weapons seized on the operation, which were often tested by them if they saw anything new.
Only three (3) prototypes were produced in October 1944 and remained at the Airborne Forces Development Centre, Salisbury Plains.

The myth, which is what it was, stems from one of a large number of inaccuracies from the book THE PARAS - BRITISH AIRBORNE FORCES 1940-1984 by Gregor Ferguson released by Osprey-Elite series publishers.

Patchett guns weren't taken to Arnhem. There were only 3 guns available at the time and they were at the ABF experimental Establishment. David Howroy always told me that Patchett always used to 'imply' that they were used in action there - but he was a salesman, trying to sell his own wares....., as he put it kindly!

As for the picture (above) of the curved magazine, I say no more.......

Maybe Patchetts at Arnhem ought to be put into the same category as religion and politics. Not discussed at dinner or in ones Mess, Lodge or Common Room for fear of causing upset! (Along with those other similar no-no's. Such as Waterless coolant and silicone brake fluid in your car)

or...................................the 48 Spitfires buried in their crates in the Philipines during the Second World War that are still there and waiting to be discovered.
Thanks Peter says it all and corroborates our Regimental Museum facts at Duxford.;)

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Such as Waterless coolant and silicone brake fluid in your car)

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:lol:

So, true.

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Originally Posted by Simon P

mentions some may have been taken to Arnhem

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I believe that there are several books, out there, that suggest this but don't know of any producing a photo to prove it.

And carrying a different Sten, or is the fore-grip removable?

Not sure on the different Sten as the pictures may not have been in the same time frame as he is wearing totally different kit in the smaller pic plus in the heat of battel weapons can get shot out of your hands so he procured another!

Some trivia;
I worked with a WWII vet when I was farming he became a POW of the Germans and said his 303 rifle was shot out of his hands just prior to his capture, of his confinement he said little except being one night caught outside the wire stealing potatoes.
The guard said don't ever let me catch you outside again or I'll have to shoot you, and with that John went back with stuffed pockets for his hut never again did he go outside........

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

The guard said don't ever let me catch you outside again or I'll have to shoot you

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The guard had to really say that as it wasn't a "holiday camp" and he didn't want to get in trouble himself. Who knows if he actually would have carried out his threat.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Not sure on the different Sten as the pictures may not have been in the same time frame as he is wearing totally different kit in the smaller pic plus in the heat of battle weapons can get shot out of your hands so he procured another!

.....

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Was wondering about that: no helmet visible in the smaller photo either. Not that there weren't some spares around as the operation progressed I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

Was wondering about that: no helmet visible in the smaller photo either. Not that there weren't some spares around as the operation progressed I suppose.

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I'm pretty sure it's only Capt Killick in the two smaller photo's, i.e the one of him on the streets of Arnhem, and the one above it from a group photo.
I don't think that is Capt Killick in the large photo with the German POW, as it doesn't even look like the same man.

We all know that there were "problems" with the radios at Arnhem but I had never heard any suggestion that the Germans attempted to "jam" British radio communications at Arnhem until I heard it mentioned in a documentary this evening. Is that correct that the Germans tried to "jam" British radios at Arnhem? If true no wonder they had problems communicating.

We have heard this since Spetember 1944 within the Regiment and museum at Duxford.
However, this again stems from a book called "Echoes From Arnhem" by Lewis Golden specifically on page 149 where he says the following if it helps:

The difficulties which were being experienced on the radio links between units of the division on the day of the landing, later to be repeated when long-range communications were opened up to outside formations, were even greater than had been expected when doubt was expressed by divisional signals before the operation started. Those difficulties stemmed not only from the anticipated wooded terrain and the built-up approaches to Arnhem, but also from the sandy nature of the soil: sand dramatically inhibits good radio reception and transmission. They stemmed, too, from heavy interference from both British and German stations. Neither of these damaging factors had been expected and, even if they had, nothing could have been done to avoid them. They were simply added impediments which high-powered radios would have overcome, but the low-powered sets of 1st Airborne Division were at a great disadvantage. Possibly there was an element of enemy jamming in this interference, and the existence of a German bunker some miles to the north-west of Arnhem, somewhere between Ede and Deelen, has since been suspected. It is reputed to have bristled with all sorts of radio equipment.

I can only conclude, that well known films alluding to wrong crystals, poor training of signallers could not be further from the truth. The geographical conditions and distances from the various Drop Zones (DZ) were a major player, and where more powerful Regimental level radios were not available say from the Bridge to update other essential units on Drop Zones.....practically with the manpack low wattage radios was impossible. My son who was a 2 PARA Signaller many years ago, went back with both Dutch Military and British Paras to find out why things went so wrong and his take on it was, an old iron ore laden ground, and lots of forests didn't help the crystal sets of the day, and would have been a definite issue, as we know today!! Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but had the comms been working it could have been a very different outcome, and the armoured units would have been given precise details when to get to the Bridge too Far!!

Operation Market Garden a great plan, implimented by many very brave soldiers which the CWGC Cemetery at Oosterbeek bears testiment, which had it succeeded would have been a great feather in Airborne Forces cap ;)

I meant to add also that the 1st Airborne Division Signals 2 i/c, Major 'Tony' Deane-Drummond, alerted the Senior officers of the 1st Airborne Division, that the plans they were making from late July onwards were far to ambitious for the radio network that they could provide as a unit - he was ignored!

It was just plain bad luck a German division was resting in that area otherwise there was no real obvious reason that all the targets of Market Garden could have been accomplished.

I can't help but remember the Netherlands Army officers said when asked (after the fact) about the Market/Garden plan. The gist of it was that they had a final exam at the officer's school that had to be passed before you would graduate. They looked at each other, chuckled, and said, "Montgomery wouldn't have passed the exam." The big final exam was how to capture the Netherlands, and the answer was that you must never, ever, ever attempt to do it by attacking up Highway 69. Why? It was a raised, two-lane highway through flat polder land. Being raised, the road made you a sitting duck to any defiladed enemy. Having only two lanes it was considered far to easy to jam up and stop progress. The successful answer used side roads.

Of course, Manty's headquarters didn't trust the Netherlands officers or the resistance before or through the battle and suffered as a result.

Bob

Bob,
:lol::lol: You made me laugh.............spot on.
They were effectively sitting ducks and picked off easily by 88's well prepared and ready.

When Brad Pitt came to us at Duxford during the filming of FURY, we made that really clear to him, that, it was tactics and knowing the German vulnerabilities that would have won us the operations, and Market Garden was so achievable.
As we all know today in this wonderful world of digital technology, had it been available then or even in the Falklands War the outcome could have been so much different and in both campaigns saved so many more lives as it would have been cut so short............COMMUNICATION key to any battle, and key to OUR lives today................ask Napoleon what he thinks!!

We talked to a Dutch guy who worked for one of the phone companies over there and he said they had trouble maintaining decent cellphone coverage in the area even then.