Britain In 1940 (Evacuation at Dunkirk)

I was reading a few 1976 THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN issues looking for the article on making 45 ACP Shotshells and ran across this interesting article in the "Dope Bag" a user comment section and thought some here might find it interesting.

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Britain In 1940
Birmingham, England
Editor:
May I add a little to your article on Britain in 1940?

I cannot remember exactly how soon after the evacuation at Dunkirk, but it could only have been a matter of a few days when we received a telephone call from the City Police. Within a few hours, we must accumulate all our stock of rifles, guns and ammunition (except cal. .22) to be collected. Within a matter of two or three hours, the Army arrived with their vehicles. We tried to take accurate records, but the speed of the operation made it impossible.

Guns were all the same to the Army, whether they were service rifles or Purdey shotguns. All were grabbed and slung shoulder-wise into the trucks. One old Birmingham gun maker wept when he saw his be loved guns treated in this Way. We were told that arms and ammunition
from gunsmiths' stocks were to be stored in the Town Hall. Our Army had lost their at weapons Dunkirk, and our newly formed Home Guard was virtually unarmed. We hoped our motley collection would be put to use, but it seemed the real intention was to put them out of reach of the enemy. I think I am right in saying no legislation existed at the time allowing the Police or government to take weapons forcibly from registered dealers. The Emergency Powers act came later. However, panic ruled.

A few days later we received a large consignment of .303 rifles which had been in transit and thereby. missed the requisition. These were supplied to factory Home Guard units who formed units at their own expense.

America's generosity was short to provide us with 1917 Enfield rifles for OUr Home Guard although some misinformed official at the War Office called them Ross rifles. It took years to correct that impression. I hope Major Hession's generosity also in sending his rifles would have been well
rewarded had we been in that desperate situation. (See "The Rifle That Came Home From The War," p. 10, The American Rifleman, Feb., 1975)
I do not remember having heard of the "Civilian Committee for the Protection of Homes, Birmingham in 1940." Our Firearms Act was still in force.

The ordinary civilian was quite ignorant of firearms and the raw Home Guard was being trained by ex-Army and Rifle Club members. Well, we could always have used pitchforks.

-Miss E. R. Parker
(An NRA Member, Miss Parker is now Mallaging Director of Alfred 1. Parker,
Ltd., manufacturers of small arms in Birmingham, England.-Editor)

I reckon one of the most poignant pictures of the early war was King George VI standing at the beach facing to the ocean with his hands clasped behind him, the country was truly in a desperate plight following Operation Dynamo and the evacuation of Dunkirk.

Trivia ~ Allot of the army and naval personnel got the sh*ts on with the RAF with the evacuation, reckoning that they were not covering the beaches to keep the Luftwaffe at bay and were skulking from their duties to engage the enemy.
Fact was the RAF pilots were engaging the German Luftwaffe miles inland far away from the beaches out of sight of the evacuating troops had they not done so at great cost to themselves then the slaughter would have been complete among those trapped on the beach and in the ocean.
Thank goodness Stuffy Dowding refused to send anymore fighters to France as well lest the Battle of Britain have a different outcome.....

These personal stories from this pivotal point in World history really are fascinating.

Had Britain been forced to the negotiation table, (invasion would likely have failed and the Germans knew it) and an accommodation reached with Germany, 20th century history would have been quite different..

I've always been sceptical regarding the rifle shortage. The reality was there were still many hundreds of thousands of Enfield's in storage from WW1 after Dunkirk. I've always been of the impression that the big 'gun drive' from the the US was more of an attempt to win over the American public, part of dragging Uncle Sam into the war.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Had Britain been forced to the negotiation table,

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The result for Britain may well have been something like "Vichy France" and Germany may still have invaded at a later date when it was better prepared.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

The result for Britain may well have been something like "Vichy France" and Germany may still have invaded at a later date when it was better prepared.

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I don't see it F10. The invasion of the UK was played out in the late 1960's as a series of war games at Sandhurst.

The Germans loose, as they simply can't support the number of troops needed. The RN and British Army would have worn them down with an eventual withdrawal or surrender inevitable.

The UK was in a very difficult position from France geopolitically and geographically.

The interesting thing would be what would happen to the third Reich without the UK's involvement.

Quite possibly, Hitler wouldn't have declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour and the US would have taken on the Japanese alone.

The Third Reich could well have stayed in place for decades until it collapsed under its own weight like the Soviet Union eventually did.

Or would the German invasion of Russia still have failed leading to a Europe eventually occupied by the USSR?

Certainly, without Britain, the US probably couldn't have become involved in Europe, even if it wanted to, without a European base it would have been quite impossible.

There are so many possible variations in play that could have altered the outcome.

One things for sure, had the UK agreed peace terms with Hitler instead of fighting on, the world would have looked very different today...

Britain sent out the call to all its colonies for weapons in lieu of the so called shortage of S.A's.

Roosevelt was pretty canny in how he supported the Brit's yes he gave them destroyers for escorts but they were vintage ships along with having Britain with the lend lease agreement which took that country till the 1990's to pay off its debt to the USA, everything comes at a cost.

By the time Hitler reached the shores of France his army and airforce were rather worn out with the German involvement in the Spanish Civil War being active from 29 July 1936 – 26 May 1939 with no break in combat then fighting their way through Poland & France so an imminent invasion was not possible.
The breather was him attacking Russia which divided his battle plans onto 2 fronts a godsend for the western allies thankfully he was delusional in his targets which undid them big time but had he pulled it off the world under the swastika and the rising sun would not have been a very nice place.

Post 4, I did state "at a later date", i.e. after a peace deal with Germany had been signed.

The point that I was trying to imply and make was that I do not believe that Hitler would have offered us a peace deal in 1940, after Dunkirk, out of the goodness of his heart and wanting nothing in return. Hitlers version of a peace deal in June 1940 would probably have involved extracting the maximum amount possible from Britain in terms of war material and anything we had left to defend ourselves, like ships and aircraft. Hitlers version of a peace deal in 1940 would have left us pretty much defenceless.

Hitler had a peace deal with Russia yet he still invaded. Hitler had an armistice with Vichy France yet he still invaded. Hitler invaded numerous neutral countries.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Post 4, I did state "at a later date", i.e. after a peace deal with Germany had been signed.

The point that I was trying to imply and make was that I do not believe that Hitler would have offered us a peace deal in 1940, after Dunkirk, out of the goodness of his heart and wanting nothing in return. Hitlers version of a peace deal in June 1940 would probably have involved extracting the maximum amount possible from Britain in terms of war material and anything we had left to defend ourselves, like ships and aircraft. Hitlers version of a peace deal in 1940 would have left us pretty much defenceless.

Hitler had a peace deal with Russia yet he still invaded. Hitler had an armistice with Vichy France yet he still invaded. Hitler invaded numerous neutral countries.

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Evening F10, there is still the fundamental difference that the UK was still a powerful country,even after Dunkirk. You have to bare in mind that the UK was still a leading industrial power at this time, it's industry in the process of turning to War production.

The Germans knew that breaking the UK would be difficult, if not impossible, so a settlement would be the ideal, especially after the Luftwaffe was broken and effectively beaten in the Battle of Britain.

The losses from Dunkirk were well on the way to being replaced by August/September 1940, personnel numbers and equipment being rebuilt and rapidly expanding across all three services as a total War footing took hold in the UK.

To negotiate the UK out of the War would have given Hitler a clear run at Russia without hinderance.

The potential what if's really are facinating...

If there was a deal then what of the English fleet and its ships!

Churchill did not muck around with the French capital ships when they were in peril of being seconded by the German navy as bad as it was at the time it was an act that necessitated their destruction.

Attack on Mers-el-Kébir - Wikipedia

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

there is still the fundamental difference that the UK was still a powerful country, even after Dunkirk.

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But you are assuming that Hitler would have wanted nothing in return for a peace deal with Britain, after Dunkirk, in 1940. I do not believe that this would have been the case. Whatever sort of deal may have emerge after negotiations with Hitler in 1940, I believe that it would have been a very one sided deal stacked very much in Germany's favour, leaving Britain severely weakened and very venerable.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

If there was a deal then what of the English fleet and its ships!

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We wouldn't have got to keep the entire Royal Navy because it was too much of a threat to Germany. There are several ways that any peace deal with Hitler could of addressed the matter.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

But you are assuming that Hitler would have wanted nothing in return for a peace deal with Britain, after Dunkirk, in 1940. I do not believe that this would have been the case. Whatever sort of deal may have emerge after negotiations with Hitler in 1940, I believe that it would have been a very one sided deal stacked very much in Germany's favour, leaving Britain severely weakened and very venerable.

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We wouldn't have got to keep the entire Royal Navy because it was too much of a threat to Germany. There are several ways that any peace deal with Hitler could of addressed the matter.

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Evening F10, your assertion regarding German demands for a ceasefire and terms depends on your point of reference, in May 1940, in the direct aftermath of Operation Dynamo or in September 1940 or early 1941, when the Germans had in effect been decisively defeated in the Air.

So May, when Britain was at a low ebb and voices to negotiate for peace were vocal in some quarters, or September when military strength was rapidly increasing along with substantial and growing input and help from our Commonwealth friends.

Yeah I really could not see the Admiralty surrendering the fleet tipping the balance of power in favour of the German Navy.
Even so I do not really think for one second that surrender was ever on the table discuss it they may have but I think bowing to a tyrant was not on the cards, Hitler never had the number of capital ships to blockade England and Raeder would not give Donitz his 300 U-Boats to accomplish it.
As Churchill said the only thing that really frightened him throughout the whole war was the U-boat peril, once they had developed radar, cracked enigma along with Walker's system of the creeping depth charge barrage also with long range aircraft closing the Atlantic black spot the U-boats were doomed.
After the U-boats 2 happy times, U-boats were sunk in ever increasing numbers as the replacement crews did not have the experience of say Lent, Shepke, Prein and other aces in the scheme of things the allied forces defeated Germany and the horror of their reign was laid bare for all the world to see.
There is a book called "Above U" I have which is a classification above Ultra that details convoys knowingly being sent into the area of U-boats as if they suddenly were not to be found then the Germans would have rightly guessed the Enigma was compromised.
So they sacrificed some convoys for the greater good to keep the enemy in the dark about their codes being deciphered.
As it was Donitz fathomed enigma was compromised and had the naval enigma receive a fourth rotor which again put a spanner in the works which was overcome that was the second happy time.

I bless all that went into that hell and all the others that followed that conflict up to the present day and future.

Well said Ron, as a snap shot, I had one Uncle ( DFC Bar) who was a flight engineer, he did two tours with Bomber Command, 52 Squadron Halifax and 460 RAAF on Lancaster's, the horror and stress took a toll on him personally that lasted his whole life.

Another Uncle fought in infantry right through the War, from France in 1940 all the way through to Germany in 1945.

Two Aunties both in the ATA, a grandfather who fought in WW1 with the Canadian 28th Infantry Division, getting gassed in 1917 and was an Air Aid Warden in Liverpool in the 1941 Blitz. Getting an award for straddling an parachute mine and preventing it going off on a wrecked building....


The rest worked in the War industry in one capacity or another.

All long gone now obviously and hugely proud of all their efforts and sacrifices.

Surrender or compromise was never an option when the entire population mobilised!

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Canadian 28th Infantry Division

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I'm thinking you mean the 28th Bn CEF? The Encyclopedia of Saskatchewan | Details

You're quite right Jim....

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

But you are assuming that Hitler would have wanted nothing in return for a peace deal with Britain, after Dunkirk, in 1940. I do not believe that this would have been the case. Whatever sort of deal may have emerge after negotiations with Hitler in 1940, I believe that it would have been a very one sided deal stacked very much in Germany's favour, leaving Britain severely weakened and very venerable.

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We wouldn't have got to keep the entire Royal Navy because it was too much of a threat to Germany. There are several ways that any peace deal with Hitler could of addressed the matter.

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It seems to be pretty clear from his statements that Hitler, and some of the Nazi leadership wanted a modus vivendi with Britain. Hitler at least stated that he would give up all overseas ambitions and guarantee the security of the British Empire in exchange for a free hand on the Continent.

This would seem to have been greatly to Britain's advantage, but as must have been realized at the time, if only by Churchill and some others, Hitler would not live forever, and his wishes even if they remained constant, would not survive him.

If peace was made in 1940 or 41, Lend Lease would never have occurred and the Soviets would have missed it more than Britain ever did. In fact given a true free hand, it seems almost certain Germany would have defeated the USSR even with Hitler's interference and mistakes. Hitler rushed into war, when he generals and admirals were expecting to be ready by 1944/45, not 1939. If Germany had begun with 150 U boats instead of 45, the war would have been lost almost certainly.

Having defeated the USSR, the imperatives of Nazi philosophy alone to say nothing of the national psychology it sprang from, would have inevitably led to ever-increasing pressure and ultimately a renewed war with Britain. The temptation after constant victory would be irrresistable. But who would be more ready in 1943, 44 when Hitler returned in triumph from the East?

Isolationism would have resurged in the USA, with Lend Lease probably a dead letter, where were the resources to prepare for war with a Germany that had the whole resources of Europe, human and material at her disposal?

No, there was no other option but to fight on and hope for the best; the public mind and mood alone would not have permitted any other course of action.

Certainly, it could do no harm to encourage Hitler to think that should he crush the USSR, the question might be re-opened, and I suspect some trouble was taken to encourage him in that belief. Not the sort of thing that ends up in the PRO however!;)

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

, your assertion regarding German demands

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My assertion is that had we entered into negotiations with Germany, following the Dunkirk evacuation in 1940, Hitler would have wanted something in return for any peace deal offered and the result would have been to put us in an even more vulnerable position. I have not, in any way, said that we should have entered into peace negotiations with Germany in 1940.

It is not the job of the Admiralty to decide how large or small the Royal Navy is, as this is decided by central government. It was in WW2 and still is today.

I think trusting a Tyrant would never have been entered into, how long would have Hitler honoured the peace deal a question that really hovers on his breaking of said deals with other parties.
Surpmil is correct in his assertions that the only really course of action was to lick the wounds & fight on as best they could.