Mosin M1891 D.1895 Bolt not closing

This is probably the most asked forum question in firearms, but so far most previous forums haven't helped me figure it out.
I have a Mosin Nagant, dated 1895, with a matching barrel and bolt. When I try to chamber a live round, a dummy, or an empty case, the bolt does not close. I cannot even force the bolt shut. The rounds fully seat in the chamber, and do not stick out. The chamber, the extractor, the bolt face, have all been cleaned and some have been polished. It doesn't close even after swapping bolt faces and bolts.
What's next? Any ideas?

So if I see the picture correctly, the extractor won't clip over the rim in either case? Maybe read this solution down about twelve by Millman. Sounds like your extractor? Read... bolt won't close with round. :( - The Russian Mosin Nagant Forum

Extractor clips over the rim just fine, and it extracts the round from the unclosed chamber. The bolt does not close even when the round is clipped in by hand. One of the first things I tried, before shotgun brushing the chamber. With a power drill.

If you have a spent case cut down the case to almost the rim and see if the bolt will close on it. If it does, then its a chamber issue, if not then you have a headspace issue.

Case head seperation maybe? Part of a case stuck in the chamber will act like that.

Yes, look real closely and see if you see part of the casing in there. You should be able to see the ridge of the case from the point of breakage if in fact that is what is wrong. if so, you'll need a broken shell extractor which are cheap.hth

We decided the chamber is short cut by a hair. Just enough to stop the bolt from closing. It's been cleaned and degreased several times now.

This must be the only mosin, ever, to have tight headspace.

Should be easy enough to solve, just a few turns of a ream and tight instead of too tight.

BVZ24 has this matter been resolved satisfactorily, just curious.

Gun shop is still waiting on a reamer. I'll update if you want.

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

I'll update if you want.

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We do...

Verdict, after 2 trips and a reamer, no work performed.
The gunsmith checked headspace, in my opinion, very late, and decided that cutting the chamber would make too large.
He thinks that the shoulder is off and wants to cut the barrel back and cut a new chamber. Nope.
I still fail to understand why a touch with the reamer wouldn't fix the shoulder enough to chamber.
I'm like 0/4 on surplus rifles this year.

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

Verdict, after 2 trips and a reamer, no work performed.
The gunsmith checked headspace, in my opinion, very late, and decided that cutting the chamber would make too large.
He thinks that the shoulder is off and wants to cut the barrel back and cut a new chamber. Nope.
I still fail to understand why a touch with the reamer wouldn't fix the shoulder enough to chamber.
I'm like 0/4 on surplus rifles this year.

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It's kind of weird. We have an expert Arisaka gunsmith and an expert Lee Enfield gunsmith hanging around these threads (I've used both and they are excellent) but I haven't seen or heard of an expert Mosin gunsmith. Anyone know of any?

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

Verdict, after 2 trips and a reamer, no work performed.
The gunsmith checked headspace.

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What was the results of the headspace gauges? This would guide you to the proper solution

He didn't go into the exact details, but it closed on the go gauge and didn't close when he dropped in a few thousandths shims until it didn't close.
The reamer that he got would cut the rim as well, so it would increase headspace.

Am I missing something here? closing on the go gauge is a good thing. Adding a few thousand shims would make it a no-go gauge wouldn't it? Which is good that it did not close on the no-go gauge. If it closes on the go gauge then I'm not understanding why it's not closing with a mil-spec round. They are supposed to be the same. Surely someone here works on a lot of Mosins that could help in this situation?

I think it's a combination of any number of these factors.
1. Really good headspace. Mosins just aren't supposed to be that tight.
2. Thicker modern commercial ammo cases. They are too big in the chamber. I actually should have found old surplus ammo to try before I sent it to the gunsmith.
3. A slightly off shoulder angle.



If most people find a Mosin that doesn't work, they just get a different mosin.

Yeah, plus I forgot Mosins headspace off the rim not the shoulder.

Interesting "gunsmith"..

In general, rimmed rounds headspace on the RIM, not on the csae shoulder.

If a factory fresh cartridge will not drop fully into the chamber, there IS an obstruction.

Separated cases are pretty rare with Mil Surplus in ANY reasonable firearm., Reloads? Not so much.. IF a many-times reloaded BRASS case has separated and left the front half behind, there are special tools to remove such obstructions and they re relatively cheap and abundant. Given the dimensions of the standard Russian case, One of the "MIL" -type case extractors, correctly used, will do the trick.

The "US" type, .30 cal / 7.62 NATO case extractors that have a thread in the front "cone" are the go. The CORRECT way to use these is to screw a bunch of rod sections to the extractor and GENTLY insert it from the REAR. There needs to be a couple of inches of rod protruding from the muzzle. The whole shebang MUST be inserted far enough that the external "collet" clips over the front end of the case neck. A GENTLE tap with a SOFT mallet or block of wood is usually sufficient to drive out the offending object.. Probably more than a few Videos floating about. Hopefully at least one will show the correct equipment. and method.

If, after all that, you still cannot fully chamber a round, find an actual gunsmith with Mil-Surp experience and especially, with "furrin" firearms.

I agree with the article Jim referenced. I had the same problem with my 1894 Spanish Mauser model 1893. IT WAS DIRT AND GRIM plane and simple. Packed in over a period of 100 years or more! I couldnt see it. The bullet appeared to seat properly.
As long as the barrel isnt short chambered (unlikey) you just need to get a dental pick and chamber brush in there with some solvent (maybe) and clean it until you see only shinny metal...no dirt anywhere!

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Originally Posted by 1903Collector

As long as the barrel isn't short chambered

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Those rifles aren't exactly a tight fit or precision made rifle. Civilian ammo shouldn't be different factory spec. I'd still try the ream with just fingers to see if it turns while in the chamber. I'd just watch to see if it contacts the rear where the rim would cut. I've had more than one occasion where an expensive rifle wouldn't chamber an expensive, well made ammunition and it was because the chamber was out of spec. Wish I had this rifle just a bit closer to me...this is frustrating to listen to.

If these things don't occur to your "Gunsmith" then you have the wrong guy. He doesn't have to be some "Specialist" in Mosin Nagant rifles.

My problem is that unless I mail it out, I don't have a lot of gunsmiths in the area. This gunsmith comes at the recommendation of a specifically vintage firearm shop in my area. He has a full machine shop. There is a better surplus gunsmith, but I got "kicked out" because of the frustrations of the smith relating to bad surplus rifle #2.

I'm not happy that headspace was the last thing they checked, it should be the first.

We are both confident that this chamber is cleaner than the day it was cut.

So far he has attempted to polish it, bought a reamer that has not yet been used, and started shopping for a different reamer.

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

bought a reamer that has not yet been used,

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See, that's what I was saying. Even with finger manipulation you can tell if things are right or too tight. Like trying a key in a lock...would be so easy to show you too...

could be just a burr or nasty tool marks on a rough cut chamber. I take it it wasn't functioning in your hands ever? In that case, I my first guess is to doubt it's a short chambered barrel. Check the extractor relief on the barrel might be misaligned. If not timed correctly (I'm not talking about timing with the front site, but the timing of that relief cut on the barrel chamber end where the extractor rides), the bolt will bump on the edge instead of fit in the recess.

Just another easy thing to check before you start turning reamers, or lapping lugs, to get it to close. But it's at the smith, so maybe ask before he starts turning the reamer. no number of turns will fix the extractor relief. in fact, it will only make it worse as this is a rimmed cartridge and headspace off the face. was there a gap between rim of case and face of the chamber?

The extractor was a very early theory. It was cracked and flattened on the portion that sits in the recess. It was filed to a more reasonable profile and tried again. It works fine with cases cut down to just a stub with rim. I also tried every (7) mosin bolt head in the shop.

Under good light, the cases don't sit all the way in the chamber, just barely enough that the bolt doesn't close.

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Originally Posted by BVZ24

It was cracked and flattened on the portion that sits in the recess

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That tells me the extractor relief cut may be off, not deep enough, or both. But if you see daylight between rim and face, then you're on to it! From the above statement, it could be both issues. Headspace will likely (should always be) set with the extractor removed from the bolt. You'll know when you you get it back if the extractor relief was a problem. If it's still sticky, or won't close on a case, put a bit of layout fluid, or color with a Sharpe, the extractor face and/or face of the barrel, and check for contact.

Try to remove the extractor compleatly from the bolthead
And seeif it helps.
Has this rifle been in Finish service?
And it have a Finish made Barrel?
And if so is there a D stamp on the barrel?
The Fins use 7.62x53 insted of x54
If it is converted to take Russian ammo it should have the D stamp.
I dont know if this could be any solution
Just a thought

Jsne

No obvious Finish or Balkan marks.
No import marks, so it's been here since before the big mosin import waves, but has obviously been re arsenaled at some point.
Original imperial barrel.

Ok
Have you tried what Usabaker said in post 4
Try that with the extracter removed.

Headspace guages will not say anything about the chsmber
It is only rim thicknes. And there is a cut out for the extracter.
So if the gunsmith use the guages and i close with a Go
It can still be the extracter.

Jsne