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I've started another thread on them as the other one as some of the pics by myself and RCS are not opening up for some reason.
Anyway I'd like some assistance with these two that I found in my wildcats lot (Not supposed to be there).
The H/S is MF = Munitions Footscray
73 - 1973
7.62
F3
The F3 and the black primer has me stumped what do these both mean is the black primer a proof loading!
As always I appreciate the help by the members here.
Well, here's what I found but it bothers me. I never imagined seeing one...read for yourself, the black primers supposedly mean loaded with sugar and used for bandoleer testing. Here's some reading for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by CINDERS
Nato Ball Round with black primer - #5 by captainT - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum
Do not know if this is common or not, but found a early 1960 New Zealand head stamp - how this is correct ?
Also in response to the black primers: I have some US F A 49 AP 30 cal with a black primer.
In 1949 US Ordnance started testing non corrosive primers and used a black color primerAttachment 128674Attachment 128675
The whole idea of that statement of it being sugar loaded...with what appears to be a standard primer(black)...is so strange. Someone must have more.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCS
The second link does not work sadly Jim, RCS the CAC round what gives the game away being of NZ production the "N"?
These black primers are going to be one of those things that we will be chasing our tails for a definitive answer some one here must know something.
Anyway here is another wildcat I have pretty much over bore the .17 Fred Flintstone the parent case is the 22/250 Rem.
303 MkVII for scale.
the 17 Flintstone Super Eyebunger or Fred Flintstone can fire a 25 gr bullet at 4500 fps which can also punch through a 1/4 metal plate. the manufactures (Ruger was one) and custom barrel makers always had problems with 17 cal (and under) barrels. I have a 17/222 wildcat cartridge which has stood the test of time for the past 40 years. I understand the 17/223 wildcat is still popular.
My photo shows a 285 OKH from the well know group of O'Neil, Keith and Hopkins and has been around for awhile. Early developments use a flash tube inside the cartridge case extending from the primer,Attachment 128704 plus a duplex powder charge. In the duplex load a fine powder was used in the rear half and a coarse powder at the front, some loadings used three different types of powder with the flash tube. With the normal loading it appears the 285 OKH is not really any better than the standard factory 280 Remington cartridge
Yes I read about the primer tube in Elmer Keith's Hell I Was There (Great book), the .17 calibers when they first come out everybody lauded them as they were ruthless on foxes but kept the energy inside the fox so no big entry/exit wounds. They are very hard to keep clean as they foul pretty easily so the accuracy falls away along with any puff of wind can move that tiny projectile off the target.
I've burnt foxes with my 22/250 Parker Hale Grand Safari with handloads 55gn Blitz Kings at @3600fps just blows big holes in things and on rabbits it just turns them into red spray but good fun but never miss a fox 'cause if you do they are very wary of the spotlight or whistle crafty suckers.
I remember I was sitting over a dam ghillie suited in forest pattern using the whistle before moving on and I sorta got this feeling that all was not quite right as the rabbits were not there nor the ducks or divers on the dam hhmmm I thought foxy loxy is about I had a really stiff breeze coming from my Rt. (Important*)
So I had the rifle on the long harris bi-pod bolt half open holding a round as I was sitting down so here we were mulling over whats up and I happened to look over my Rt shoulder well there you go at 15 feet was Mr foxy loxy head down eyeing me off pondering what this tree stump looking thing was about.
He was a male in resplendent condition gotta nail you mate, so Rt hand crept towards my rifle sitting on the bi-pod fox notices movement and moves out to 35 feet in front of me still inquisitive whilst my hand is on the rifle good so I started to lift.
Well things never really align in predicaments like this the wind changed 90 degrees and from behind me now he got a good whiff did an end swap whilst opening the throttle in all fours by this time I had the rifle up but as I was set for a long shot with the scope on 30 power I could not find him.
By the time I wound the power ring back and got him in the scope he was already zig zagging 180-200 meters away plus I was in a horrid position the long legged bi-pod and heavy 28" barrel it was a difficult off hand shot damn nose heavy rifle!
I let him live but came across the pair some weeks later killing the vixen going for a 2 in 1 shot but hit her lower jaw so it just blew her up and he off again followed by a hope shot at about 400m.
Pic of the Vixen that's another funny story she is.
The 7-30 Waters cartridge was originally a wildcat cartridge developed by author Ken Waters in 1976 to give better performance to lever-action rifle shooters than the parent .30-30 Winchester cartridge, by providing a higher velocity and flatter trajectory with a smaller, lighter bullet. By 1984, Winchester introduced a Model 94 rifle chambered for the 7-30 Waters, establishing it as a commercial cartridge. In 1986, Thompson/Center began chambering 10-inch, 14-inch, and 20-inch Contender barrels for the cartridge.
Development
A review of the 7-08 Rem. (a .308 Win. case necked down to 7 mm), explains the design of the cartridge with the following:
Anything a 7 mm can do, a .30 caliber of comparable sectional density and ballistic coefficient can also do. The catch is, in order to send a .30-caliber slug over a trajectory as flat as that 7 mm bullet, about 20 percent more recoil is going to be generated. A bullet in 7 mm produces clearly superior downrange performance in terms of delivered energy and trajectory at any given recoil level compared to a bullet in .30 caliber.
There are two primary reasons a 7 mm recoils less than an comparably effective .30 cal. cartridge: To match the 7 mm's ballistic coefficient requires a significantly heavier .30 cal bullet; and to drive that heavier .30 cal bullet at similar velocities (for kinetic energy and wind resistance ("time-to-target")), requires more powder. This combination of heavier bullets with heavier powder charges significantly increases the recoil of the .30 caliber.
The .30-30 Winchester is typically limited to short ranges, primarily because of the relatively small case capacity and the 150-grain and 170-grain bullet weights. To compensate for this, Waters necked the cartridge down to use a 7 mm bullet (.284 inches), rather than the original .308 caliber (7.62 mm) bullet. Because it was designed to function in lever-action rifles, the 7-30 maintained the same low working pressure, yet Waters' original design fired a lighter bullet (139 grains) at a higher velocity (2600 ft/s).
A typical .30-30 factory load fires a 150-grain bullet at 2390 ft/s, while the current 7-30 factory load fires a 120-grain bullet at 2700 ft/s. Muzzle energy is just over 1900 ft-lbs for both of these loads, but the lighter weight 7 mm bullet has a higher velocity and flatter trajectory.
The 7-08 Remington (308 necked down to 7mm) was really a military development dating back to the early 1950 period. At this time the FN Factory in Belgium took the US T-65 cartridge case which was 49mm in length (at this time) and necked it down to use the 7mm Mauser S12 bullet. This cartridge fired a 140 bullet at 2750 fps and was called the 7mm Liviano and sold to Venezuela with 5000 new FN FAL rifles in this caliber in 1954. When Remington introduced the 7mm-08 in 1980 it fired a 140gr bullet at 2860 fps -
The 30-30 wildcats have been around since the 1940's or even before. The two wildcats in my photos are 6,5x30-30 Bullberry and 25x30-30 (many others like the 257JDJ & Imp)
These were very well liked for hunting with the Thompson-Center single shot pistol - favorite was the 14 inch barrel.
Remington made the 30-30 into a rimless cartridge called the 30 Remington for pump and autoloaders
photos show the 7x49 Liviano and 6,5x30-30 & 25x 30-30 wildcatsAttachment 128712Attachment 128713
When NZ began production of the 7.62x51 cartridge at the Colonial Ammunition Company (CAC) in Auckland in 1960, the first batch included the NATO symbol (a cross in a circle) and later batches had the letter N. This was to signify the ammo was loaded to NATO specifications, not to signify NZ was a member of NATO. The N was dropped in 1962 and all later ammo just had CAC L1A1 and two-digit date. CAC went out of business in the early '80's after losing the Army ammo contract in the late '60's. They continued with .22 rimfire, 12 gauge shotgun, and various centrefire hunting calibres but went downhill with poor management, loss of skilled staff, and interference from accountants who didn't understand the complexities of ammunition manufacture. The post-war (1950-1959) .303 Mk VII ammo from CAC was very consistent and high-quality, winning many international rifle matches. The principle reason for the demise of CAC was the decision to retool the very old .303 machinery for 7.62 production instead of going to new and more efficient machines. After CAC the Army purchased ammo from Australia (the excellent F4 from the old CAC factory in Footscray) but now source their ammo from a variety of suppliers. I purchased the last of the NZ Army .303 CAC Mk VII stocks in 1988 (286,000 rounds) and it sold out in six months!
He is my .250 Ackley Improved which was developed by Parker Otto Ackley, P.O. Ackley, was an American gunsmith, barrel maker, author, columnist, and wildcat cartridge developer, that sparked considerable interest in improved cartridges.
According to P.O. Ackley, the modified 257 Roberts was likely the best improved round compared with the couple dozen or so factory cartridges he’d experimented with.
The two most popular "Improved" .257 Roberts cartridges are the Ackley and RCBS versions. They are quite similar except for the shoulder angle, which is 40 degrees for the Ackley version and 28 degrees for the RCBS version.
The Ackley Improved family of wildcat cartridges are designed to be easily made by rechambering existing firearms, and fireforming the ammunition to decrease body taper and increase shoulder angle, resulting in a higher case capacity. P.O. Ackley improved not only standard cartridges, but also other popular wildcats. Measured water capacities of a standard .257 Roberts case and fireformed AI cases, the difference was about 13 percent (60 grains compared to 53 grains of water).
The Hornady Handbook and Nosler Reloading Guide show maximum reloads for the .257 Improved (either version) achieving muzzle velocities (MV) of about 3600 fps with a 75 grain bullet, 3400-3500 fps with an 85-87 grain bullet, 3200 fps with a 100 grain bullet, 2900-3000 fps with a 115-117 grain bullet, and 2900 fps with a 120 grain bullet.
The Hornady Handbook and Nosler Reloading Guide show maximum reloads for the .257 Improved (either version) achieve muzzle velocities (MV) of about 3600 fps with a 75 grain bullet, 3400-3500 fps with an 85-87 grain bullet, 3200 fps with a 100 grain bullet, 2900-3000 fps with a 115-117 grain bullet, and 2900 fps with a 120 grain bullet.
The fifth edition of the Noser Reloading Guide shows that 43.5 grains of RL19 powder can drive a 115 grain Nosler Partition bullet (BC .389, SD .249) in an Ackley Improved case to a MV of 2672 fps; 47.5 grains of RL19 will take the same bullet to a MV of 2960 fps.
The .257 Ackley Improved is a fine performer, adding up to 100 fps velocity over its factory cousin. One of its advantages, Ackley noted, is the fact that .257 Roberts factory ammunition can be used in an improved rifle if necessary.
Mk VII 303 for scale.
Only way you will find out the truth Cinders is to pull one of those black primed cartridges to see if there's sugar in there.....
Maybe pull the bullet and pour it in your tea....it will be either bitter or sweet:rofl:
Here is the FN 5.7×28mm (designated as the 5.7×28 by the C.I.P. and FN 5.7x28mm NATO) is a small-caliber, high-velocity, smokeless powder, rebated rim, bottlenecked centerfire cartridge designed for handgun and personal defense weapon (PDW) uses manufactured by FN Herstal. It is similar in length to the .22 WMR (5.7×27mm) and to some degree similar also to the .22 Hornet or .22 K-Hornet. Unlike many new cartridges, it has no parent case; the complete package was developed from scratch by FN.
The 5.7×28mm was developed in conjunction with the FN P90 PDW and FN Five-seven pistol in response to NATO requests for a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge. In 2002 and 2003, NATO conducted a series of tests with the intention of standardizing a PDW cartridge as a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge. The tests compared the relative merits of the 5.7×28mm cartridge and the 4.6×30mm cartridge, which was created by Heckler & Koch as a competitor to the 5.7×28mm. The NATO group subsequently recommended the 5.7×28mm cartridge, citing superior performance in testing, but the German delegation objected and the standardization process was halted until 2021 when it was officially adopted as a NATO standard STANAG 4509.
MkVII 303 for scale
Yes it may be an option to pull one of them but will wait for a while as I dislike pulling collected rounds apart.
my first photo shows both the 22 Hornet and the 22 K-Hornet developed by Lysle Kilbourn in 1940. Kilbourn opened the chamber making an improved version which is still in use today.
The 22 K-Hornet will fire a 35gr bullet at 3000 fps and a 50gr bullet at 2540 fps
My second photo shows a 5,56x33mm shortened case for use in smaller weapons, Some years ago IMI developed a short 5,56mm cartridge with a case length of 22.9mm and total overall of 30,15mm which fired a 46gr bullet at 1902 fps in modified UZI machine pistols. This cartridge is also known as the 223 Urban Cartridge, it is unknown if still in limited service.
India also adopted a new 5,56x33mm cartridge in the past few years too.
The other short cartridge in the second photo is the 30 Cal Kurtz which was developed by a private company to convert the M1 carbine. This also required a longer barrel and modifications to the carbine. The cartridge used 308 case cut down
and sized to use a 30 caliber bullet of 110 grs. It was not very popular and soon disappearedAttachment 128770Attachment 128771
Here my 256 Winchester Magnum
.
The .256 Winchester Magnum is a firearms cartridge developed by Winchester, and was produced by necking-down a .357 Magnum cartridge to .257 diameter. It was designed for shooting small game and varmints. It is now obsolete and only offered by custom manufacturers
History
Introduced in 1960, Winchester offered ammo and reloading components into the early 1990s. The cartridge was first chambered in the Ruger Hawkeye single shot pistol. The next year (1962) Marlin chambered their Model 62 Levermatic rifle for the new Winchester cartridge. These were the two principal firearms chambered for the .256 Win. Mag.
Ballistics
From an 8.5 inch pistol barrel the 60 grain .256 Winchester factory load was advertised as having a MV of 2350 fps and ME of 735 ft. lbs. This was 250 fps faster and nearly twice as powerful as the .22 Remington Jet, a varmint cartridge for revolvers that was also based on a necked-down .357 Magnum case.
According to data from the fifth edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, hand loaders with a .256 rifle can approximately duplicate the Winchester factory load using the Hornady 60 grain Flat Point bullet in front of 15.5 grains of H4227 powder for a MV of 2700 fps. The trajectory of that load is: +2.3 inches at 50 yards, +4.4 inches at 100 yards, 0 at 200 yards, and -26.2 inches at 300 yards.
Winchester offered factory loaded .256 Magnum ammunition (and brass to reloaders) into the beginning of the 1990s. Winchester .256 factory loads used a 60 grain Open Point Expanding bullet at a MV of 2760 fps and ME of 1015 ft. lbs. from a 24-inch rifle barrel. That is about 500 fps faster than Winchester factory loads for the old .25-20 cartridge. At 200 yards the velocity was 1542 fps and the remaining energy was 317 ft. lbs.
303 MkVII for scale.
I have a photo of three early cartridges that were tested before the 7,62x51mm was adopted.
On the left is one of my favorites, the 7x49mm Liviano, it originated from the FN factory in Belgium using an early US FATIEL 49mm case necked down to use the 7mm Mauser S12 bullet
with a velocity of 2750fps with a 140gr bullet. FN in Belgium sold 5000 FN FAL rifles in 1954 to Venezuela chambering this cartridge. Still in service until the early 1960's.
Second cartridge is the 7,92x40mm CETME from Spain for use in the German designed CETME rifle. It fired a 105gr aluminum core bullet at 2690fps. The aluminum core bullet could not be used as a military cartridge. The CETME used a reduced 7,62x51 loading until a stronger action was developed to use the NATO cartridge.
Last cartridge is also a favorite of mine, the 280/30 cartridge developed during the early post war period. It fired a 139gr bullet at 2500fps and would still make an excellent cartridge todayAttachment 128896
You have a nice selection of rounds RCS which I find and hope others do very interesting.
Been through my COTW 14th Ed scoured the net with different spelling and titles and drew a blank!!!!!
The cartridge was I.D'ed by the chap I brought the collection from as a 41 Patterson that's all the info I got.
Its parent case is an IMI 50 AE necked down to 41 cal with what appears to be a gas checked lead H.P.
So again RCS are you able to ID this thing correctly.
Thanks in advance bloke.
MKVII for scale.
I am also unable to locate any information on the 41 Paterson cartridge. Looks to me as just a 429 Desert Eagle cartridge necked
down to 41 cal on the 50 AE case. There can not be that much improvement over the standard 429 DE cartridge and an expensive
project too
My 375 JDJ based off the 444 Marlin case J D Jones started playing around with propriety cartridges around 1978.
This cartridge he developed is capable of taking elk, has lively recoil when loaded to top velocities in the handgun.
Mk VII 303 for scale.
Both the Winchester 25-35 and the Marlin 25-36 were introduced in 1895 chambered in the Winchester 1894 and the Marlin 1893 lever actions. These cartridges were not quite the same, with the Marlin 25-36 being a little longer with a larger rim diameter than the 25-35 Winchester. The Winchester 25-35 could be fired in the Marlin 1893 but the Marlin 25-36 could not be chambered in the Winchester.
During the mid 1920's Marlin discontinue production of the 25-36 cartridge and hunters just used the 25-35 WCF in both rifles.
Note the Winchester Protected primer with the small w on the 25-35 cartridge. The outer cup was intended to lessen the chance of ignition in the magazine tube by recoil. Winchester used the protected primer starting in 1926 with the 25-35 and 30-30. Attachment 129005Attachment 129006
Always wondered why they had that type of primer, what it was...Quote:
Originally Posted by RCS