Zeroing the No4(T) and No32 MK3 /III for the first time Part 2

As promised, after a slight Covid induced delay and much change in the country, Part 2.

In Part 1 we walked through what I did to collimate the bore with the No.32 Scope - see thread here:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=76986

Now it was a case of zeroing. Couldn't be simpler really.
Range Day, 50yds, using WW2 matched reloads (PPU case, 174gr boat-tail, 2440fps).

Was optimistic that Part 1 would get the rifle on the paper....the results speak for themselves....quite frankly was stunned.
The first 5-rounds can be seen on the large target. The three huns head just for fun and nostalgia.
Unfortunately am not able to explain any adjustments because there weren't any to be made from Part 1! What's the take-away? Part 1 works...

I will look to zero at 100m too and also experiment further at different ranges as I have time.
Hope this has been useful and reiterate this is what 'I did' - other approaches are available...

Also included IWM Images from WW2; firstly (IWM Images) a nod to Ma'am, and her meeting with snipers in WW2 and also of Pte Frances Miller, a notable British sniper.

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Originally Posted by BazSmiles

Also included IWM Images from WW2; firstly (IWM Images) a nod to Ma'am, and her meeting with snipers in WW2 and also of Pte Frances Miller, a notable British sniper.

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The image with both HMQ's is interesting as that is likely a rare shot of an Airborne Div sniper, if it is a sniper they are chatting with, as opposed to a normal Airborne Div soldier displaying typical camo methods for their visit?

Still had allot to learn with regards to concealment with the sniper talking to the Queen Mother, the Pat 37 web gear with its brass button Khaki colouring and sharp lines could mean the difference in being spotted or blending in.

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Still had allot to learn with regards to concealment with the sniper talking to the Queen Mother, the Pat 37 web gear with its brass button Khaki colouring and sharp lines could mean the difference in being spotted or blending in.

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As noted above, Airborne Div, so very different role to infantry Div snipers.

We can only really go on the description provided (see attached).

There will always be a need to access ammo pouches; although, yes, not ideal.

We'll never know for sure, but suspect he is a sniper..........the other paras in the background are not so festooned with outline disrupting hessian cammo strips.

I thought doctrine of the day was take out high value targets I.E Commanding staff and then sorta shoot 'n Scoot. If a Sniper has to start delving into his ammo pouches because he is holding out then the enemy already know pretty much where he is with retribution surely to follow as I read usually mortars or artillery fire.

Although not every situation is like that.

I think Carlos Hathcock and his spotter (Not sure if it was Land) held that group of VC in a paddy field for 2 days keeping the field illuminated with start shells all night, they did move around their hill but took a very good haul from that field before they retired, many a VC peered over the berm to be greeted in the face by a 308 projectile.
Probably his most prejudicial kill was the VC woman called "Apache" whom Carlos put another round into her to make sure she was dead he need not have worried the first round snuffed her out, it was what she did to her captured GI's that made Carlos own her.

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Originally Posted by BazSmiles

We can only really go on the description provided (see attached).

There will always be a need to access ammo pouches; although, yes, not ideal.

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Just before D-Day......I wonder if these were 1st or 6th AB?

The sniper is wearing a newer issue web strap para helmet, and the guys in the background are wearing the leather strap version.

As for pouches, makes you wonder what a sniper would have carried in his pouches, as I'm sure it wouldn't have been 2 pairs of Bren mags in each......a few grenades I would guess, or they pulled all the charger clips from a bandolier and pulled of the chargers, and filled one pouch with loose rounds given you can't use a charger with the scope on. Lying prone with stuff in the Bren pouches is bloody uncomfortable though.....and they are bugger to get anything out of them, except a pair of Bren mags, so not sure what a sniper would have put in them.....other than rations and other stuff like that.

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

As for pouches, makes you wonder what a sniper would have carried in his pouches, .....other than rations and other stuff like that.

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Maybe - Chocolate, Nylons and Condoms (Just In case)

It is a parade after all. The hessian itself was probably a struggle enough for some chaps with pace sticks under their arms, or others with red collar tabs for that matter. ;)

Looks like there's a couple of grenades hanging off his belt.

Good eyes Surpmil couple of Mills 36's.

FWIW these are pre-theatre troops very much 'on display'. Once in theatre it's highly likely the regulation rig goes out the window and you either learn from those before you - or adapt pretty quickly to what works. Suspect your second chances to get things right were few and far between!
In one of the other images provided Pte Miller festoons a more likely ammunition rig, albeit his images are taken in a moody, staged setting.

ps Have tracked other images of the same where their Royal Highnesses are speaking with Maj Gen Gale, he was Commander 6th AB.

A search for "Princess Elizabeth and 6th Airborne Division" brings up quite a few photos taken on this occasion. Brig. Gen. James Hill is just visible behind the then Queen.

What became of the canvas covered wheelbarrows in combat; did they prove effective or not? Solid tires?

Good shooting BTW; freehand or off a rest?

Thank you. Shooting off a bag rest for the zero.
Not seen the canvassed covered wheel-barrows but had to laugh at the solid tyres implication; assuming, like me, that you are forever dealing with flat ones on your own wheelbarrow (until I switched to solid...)!

From information we hold at the Airborne Forces Museum this was a photo taken on the 19th May 1944 of Snipers of the 6th Airborne Division at Bulford Camp on a Royal Visit.

The photo of Captain Malindine wass one unconneccted as he waas a member of the Army Film & Photographic Unit.
Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

canvass covered wheel barrows

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Apart from the obvious carrying kit etc could they have doubled up as moving a incapacitated or wounded soldier by 1 person instead of two, that sorta reminds me of the old canvas seats we had at the out door theatre near my home when we went to watch movies (As a treat).

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

From information we hold at the Airborne Forces Museum this was a photo taken on the 19th May 1944 of Snipers of the 6th Airborne Division at Bulford Camp on a Royal Visit.

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Gil,

Any info on how the Para snipers dropped with their kit. I assume rifle went in the leg bag, and somewhere on their person in their jump rig they stashed the scope/bracket in its case (in either version). Just wondering where/how they stashed the scope can on them when jumping?
I guess the air-landing snipers had a slightly easier job in that regard going in a glider if crashing in a Horsa could be considered an easy option...!!

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Originally Posted by BazSmiles

Thank you. Shooting off a bag rest for the zero.
Not seen the canvassed covered wheel-barrows but had to laugh at the solid tyres implication; assuming, like me, that you are forever dealing with flat ones on your own wheelbarrow (until I switched to solid...)!

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Oh yes! "Binned them and done that", as one might say. :D

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Apart from the obvious carrying kit etc could they have doubled up as moving a incapacitated or wounded soldier by 1 person instead of two, that sorta reminds me of the old canvas seats we had at the out door theatre near my home when we went to watch movies (As a treat).

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Exactly what I was thinking as I looked at that photo, though the problem is the casualty would either have to sit cross-legged or have his feet drag on the ground. Had the wheels been a little larger, and the handles extendable fore and aft, the occupant could have perhaps hung his legs over the aft pair, or a canvass sling to go between the handles could have been provided. Would also have allowed one/two to pull while one/two pushed or lifted as required.

And depending on the terrain to be crossed, one man rather than two evacuating a non-ambulatory casualty can't be a bad thing.

Paratroopers jumped with their sniper rifle securely held within what was called a 'Valaise'. This was an internally quilted course external covering which allowed the rifle to be lowered on a 15 foot strop once their parachute had opened, so they were left unimpeded to roll on hitting the deck.
Many left the scopes mounted, but a few carried them in the tins in their bags.
I have to say, disconnecting and connecting the scope each time in the years when I held a 4T of my own, it was never the same shot when fitted back onto the rifle. Personal choice and left very much to the trained sniper.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Paratroopers jumped with their sniper rifle securely held within what was called a 'Valaise'. This was an internally quilted course external covering which allowed the rifle to be lowered on a 15 foot strop once their parachute had opened, so they were left unimpeded to roll on hitting the deck.
Many left the scopes mounted, but a few carried them in the tins in their bags.
I have to say, disconnecting and connecting the scope each time in the years when I held a 4T of my own, it was never the same shot when fitted back onto the rifle. Personal choice and left very much to the trained sniper.

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The impact of the valaise/rifle hitting the ground at the speed they hit I would have thought would have had more risk to the scope than any issue's with zero, although I get that point, although I can't say I've ever had too much issue on my 4T on the couple of times I've had to remove the scope/bracket.
From my memory of the rare valaise, and its 25 years since I last fiddled with one, I'm surprised you could fit a scoped 4T into one......I seem to remember a normal No.4 was quite a snug fit inside one....?

They were issued as is, one size fits all, but many left their rifles assembled with the scope fitted. Yes it was a tight fit and cut and designed to be just that. I can say from experience, that any body worn container, often is in swing mode, unless it is deadly calm, and it hangs beneath you as an integral part. This swinging motion often takes the sting out of any impact you might imagine!
I was desperaately trying to find some footage to demonstrate that bu couldn't find any in the archive in the time I attributed to this. I'll keep looking.;)