P14 Sniper Wood

Hi Guys, A number of years ago I acquired a nice P14 Winchester all matching sporter and set at trying to find an original wood stock to restore it into. I recently acquired one, but believe I probably didn't get exactly what I was looking for. (I have attached some pictures of both the stock and the re wooded rifle). What I think I have is a stock that was modified during WWI to mount an Aldis scope. What I'm looking for I guess is confirmation that I still have to continue looking.

Attachment 128855Attachment 128856Attachment 128857Attachment 128858Attachment 128859Thanks in advance.

It looks like you have a stock set off a Rifle No3 Mk1* (T) A. It is not off the 'common' P'14 sniper rifle that bears the Model 1918 scope on over bore claw mounts, but from one of the 421 rifles set up by Alex Martin in early WW2 using Great War rifles & Great War Aldis scopes (Aldis for the most part, a few other types of vintage WW1 scopes were also fitted).

I have an original No3 Mk1* (T) A rifle that has been fitted with a replacement stock as it had been sporterised, but the previous owner didn't make the best of jobs of it. If you decide you want to sell your stock I'd be very interested!

Then why does it say Patt.14 on the buttstock?

Because the stock was originally made (& marked) in 1916/17 when the official designation of the rifle was the Pattern '14. The system changed in 1926 when the P'14 rifle became known as the Rifle No3. The two orders for the sniper conversions for which the OP has the woodwork were made in 1940 & 1941, & the correct designation had become the Rifle No3 Mk1* (T) A.

Thanks for the explanation!

No worries!:thup:

In all of my collection time I had not seen a single spare Alexander Martin P.14 sniper stock. Very interesting - and at the same time hurtful to look at, because it makes it obvious someone killed a sniper rifle for this stock.


We have one user from NZ here on milsurps.com who has an original Alexander Martin P.14 barreled action, without stock & mount. He had posted it on this forum: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=67115 . Unfortunately pics are gone. But mating his metal with your stock would result in almost a sniper rifle again. I'd have the spare scope with mount waiting for one of those in my display ... ;). Well, hadn't it been for Roger who already told you he was interested, I'd had said the same. But the gentlemen from UK has a much better reason than me to get the stock, if you ever decide to part.


General question from my side on this, some of the P.14 sniper rifles have cheek pads, most do not (applies same to the PPCo as well as Alexander Martin rifles). Is there any particular reason as to why some have it and some not?


Edit: did you ever check your stock in very detail if it happens to have a rifle serial stamped somewhere? Some of the P.14 sniper rifles had the serial stamped on them, most I saw was in front of the magazine guard.


Edit2: did you check with the seller of the stock if he has the action to it/where he got it from? Maybe the original sniper action to it is still somewhere around, maybe now in a different stock. It definitely is worth asking him, because the worst outcome could be no outcome.

Was it bought in Nova Scotia, or elsewhere in Canada?

Could use that stock set alright. Would love to see the inside of the stock where the front bracket would sit around the barrel before it protrudes out through the handguard. I'm guessing the woodwork is relieved in that area. One day I'll get my restoration sorted....

Congrats, (maybe?) I saw that No3 Mk1* (T) A stock on U.S. Ebay and wondered how may viewers knew what they were looking at; or how many forum members noticed it.

That was for a pretty specific model of rifle and I was hoping it would go to a good home. It was very, very, reasonably priced for what it was, but I personally knew the odds of finding the correct project action for it unless someone had it already.

If you were looking for a regular Winchester stock (that is not Drill Purpose cut) they do come up and they can be found if you check the markings. That is a very unique stock and is quite a mismatch if I have understood you correctly.

Edit: I just looked at the listing and the seller again and the seller parted out this entire rifle, chopped receiver included, including the rear No3 Mk1* (T) A aperture rear sight among everything else!
And a complete No4 MkI (T)!
For tenths of pennies on the dollar!

I was not aware it was on eBay, so went after it ... and Jesus, that is disturbing. He torch cut the receiver and sold the front receiver half among the barrel with the front base still installed too.
Stock: Lee Enfield 303 P14 Pattern 1914 Sniper Stock with Cheek Riser Original#2 | eBay
Barrel: Lee Enfield 303 1914 Barrel 25 Vintage | eBay
Peep Sight: Lee Enfield 303 P14 Pattern 1914 Rear Sight | eBay
(plus there were former auctions for magazine guard and bolt catch which I had not linked)

Based on his other auctions it seems firearms are not his focus.

He still has the P14 Butt-Plate on sale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

He torch cut the receiver and sold the front receiver half among the barrel with the front base still installed too.

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I guess it's so he doesn't have to deal with any formalities. Shows he isn't a gun guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I guess it's so he doesn't have to deal with any formalities. Shows he isn't a gun guy.

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Not fully sure, I'm though wondering why he didn't list the bolt nor the scope with mount.

Whole thing is sad, you see these broken down to parts because in the LONG run they make more money. Hard for some to choke on the big bill. Originality means nothing to some.

These could easily have been from a police confiscation where the receivers had to be destroyed. The sum of the parts here would not exceed the amount you could sell the whole gun for. Just a thought.

It was one of only 421 examples ever made...........I've no idea how many have survived intact, but it can't be more than a few dozen, I'd think.:(

Just an observation; my guess is that seller bought a job-lot of chopped weapons from a gunsmith estate or tinkerer. Looking at his "for sale" items, he has a few more barrels with chopped actions on auction. Looking at the various former weapons (Schmidt Rubin, Spanish Destroyer, P14) I am leaning towards ex-police confiscations, either stolen-recovered or those used in crimes. Most, if not all police departments in California routinely chop/melt down/destroy all firearms that can not be returned to rightful owners. As that seller is in Tennessee, perhaps their PDs are less draconian when disposing of firearms. I had a friend whose home was burglarized some years back, and he lost a Browning Hi-Power and a pre-ban M1A. Years later they were recovered. The police returned his Hi-Power, minus high-cap mag, but could not release his M1A as it was a pre-Ban rifle and he never registered it in 2000 as an assault rifle. It was destroyed, and the Police sent him a verification letter, with a Cal DOJ notice of destruction.

When I used to frequent Fed-Ord back in the late 80's, they sometimes had chopped/destroyed weapons for sale, purchased from either the El Monte or Whittier PD, or some foreign government. Those days, like Fed-Ord, are long gone.

A shame to see the fate of that P14, but I'd wager that was done by an uncaring bureaucrat completely oblivious to the rarity and significance of such a piece.

Well, had I seen that thing ... I'd had made a clean cut at the receiver rear and weld on the rear portion of a DP action and make it working again. It could had been saved if that guy would had listed all of them in one listing and clearly advertised as what it was.

Well that's just sad. At least there are some pictures i can use for my restoration.

I was wondering if I would get a reply as to what happened and why if I messaged him before the pitchforks and torches came out.
Or messaging him to at least tell the buyers of completed listings what they really got.
(Even though that tends to offend sellers just a wee bit.)

I also conjectured it could have been an estate or anti-gun police departments.
Its too bad that there could not have been a lawsuit or legal process or some kind of exception to keep these at least from being cut up above all.
That No 3 Mk I (T) A was on about the level of that case of that StG 44 that was saved from the smelter by the police and much rarer by the production numbers and with much less stigma.

Not denying there is a endemic problem of breaking up rifles, but:
Specifically in this one case there is no way the separated parts would bring more than the complete $10,000 to $20,000 rifle. Especially since no one in these listings apparently knew what they were buying.
And, I already ran the numbers: He sold a $2000.00-$10,000.00 rifle for about $885.88 and a $10,000 to $20,000 rifle (the No 3 Mk I* (T) A) for about $783.43!

Not a real great business deal there just based on the intrinsic value of the rifles alone and completely disregarding the true historical significance of these items.
I don't know if that makes it feel better or worse for whoever tried to profit by this.

At the very least if the firearms had to be chopped he could have sold the parts together for those with rare projects out there instead of parting them out to uninformed buyers.


Wonder if he threw the scopes away as old outdated garbage nobody would want?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo
He torch cut the receiver and sold the front receiver half among the barrel with the front base still installed too.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

I guess it's so he doesn't have to deal with any formalities. Shows he isn't a gun guy.

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He sold the front No 4 Mk I (T) pad with the chopped receiver as well.

I have seen these gunbusters type sellers before.
Not real motivational to the responsible firearms owners out there to report the theft of a firearm to the police if the stolen property gets destroyed after it is recovered anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AD-4NA

I was wondering if I would get a reply as to what happened and why if I messaged him before the pitchforks and torches came out. Or messaging him to at least tell the buyers of completed listings what they really got. (Even though that tends to offend sellers just a wee bit.)

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No, will you message him and let us know? I really wonder too..

I've seen the cut-up remains of such activities in a scrap yard locally: little bits of antique pocket pistols after a thick cutting disc was run through them. Nothing salvageable except screws basically and I didn't bother!

This guy might have bought the chopped up remains from some scrap yard or his local P.D./gov. surplus auction.

His past sales don't show a pattern of such activities AFAIK, so either he's just started to buy such stuff, or he just stumbled on these parts as a one-time deal.

If he was in on the chopping up, you'd expect him to have the scope and if he had the scope you'd expect him to 1. sell it on eBay and 2. realize what the stock was for and list it appropriately.

Possibly some collector was unwise enough to die suddenly without leaving information for his heirs as to the values of what he had, or he died intestate or without heirs and local authorities did the chop.

If it was angry and resentful heirs destroying __________'s property out of spite, as they sometimes do, I doubt they would have bothered to take the stock off the action!

Looked again, for future reference (if the original scope mount to this rifle might one day turn up), the rifle serial was W238611. Did anyone ever record this serial before?